S.P.A.R.C.
The Narcissist In Court
Used with permission from Sam Vaknin and the Archives of the Narcissism List
http://deltabravo.net/custody/narcissist.php
Article - The Narcissist In Court
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Frustrated
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- Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:15 am
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That's the funny thing, CPS thinks some Parents are Narcissts too. 
But then again, CPS are the most Sociopaths next to real Murderers. They can show their true colors if you press hard enough.
But then again, CPS are the most Sociopaths next to real Murderers. They can show their true colors if you press hard enough.It is easy to steal from poor people. But don't do it. And don't take advantage of those poor people in court. The Lord is on their side. He supports them and he will take things away from any person that takes from them.~ Proverbs 22:22
Yes Rac,
I read that article several years ago, and it has stuck in my mind for a long time. I have benefitted from the information in it several times -- not in court though.
I suppose it could also provide some insight into counseling. The phenomenon that occurs in psychotherapy is called "transference" and "counter-transference." I will try to do some research on that. It falls under the category of the "therapeutic relationship."
From what I can gather, transference is when the patient starts acting like the therapist, and countertransference is when the therapist starts acting like the patient. If you understand the dynamics well enough, and if you can manipulate the therapist enough, you can get them to act unprofessional.
I think children who have attachment disorders are supposed to be good at this. They have had so many different caregivers, they learn how to mimic and mirror each new caregiver very quickly in order to survive.
The best place to see narcissism and this transference business is on The Apprentice on TV. The first person to mimic Donald Trump was the famous Omarosa. She was the first to interrupt the board room meeting, speak out of turn and attack someone. Donald Trump didn't fire Omarosa that day, but he fired the girl who didn't respond to the unfair attacks, because she didn't defend herself.
She didn't know she was supposed to counter rudeness with rudeness while Donald was running the show. This was a new rule. Well, the rest is history. Every boardroom since then has been plagued with verbal abuse and a free-for-all.
From Day One of the show, every boardroom resulted in EVERYBODY acting in whatever way was sanctioned by Trump in the boardroom. The candidates ALL followed each new rule that came up in the board room, and inevitably one person would test the new rule, either the next week or several weeks later. For every rule that Donald came up with, someone tested it until they made a liar out of him.
By the third season, the candidates gradually started to realize that this wasn't about rules, it was about winning. And whoever succeeded in making a fool out of Donald the most was going to be fired next. One girl really cut him down in the boardroom, just like he had done so many times to the others, and he fired her on the spot. He can dish it out, but he can't take it.
At the end of the third season, there were two women left. One acted normal and got along very well with her team-mates in hosting a celebrity event. She had been a school teacher.
The other woman did a grotesque imitation of Donald Trump in her management of an event, I think it was an Olympics- related event. She was nasty to her team, condescending, and the whole nine yards, and it was very obvious that she was trying to mimic Donald. Being queen for the day went straight to her head.
After they showed that episode in the hour before the live season finale, Donald was quite speechless when he came on the air. It was a very awkward moment, to see himself mirrored in such a grotesque manner. He was quite literally afraid to say anything before thinking first, and you could see him hesitate before every last sentence he spoke. He had to literally bite his tongue.
He finally "got it," what all school teachers learn the first week. The kids are going to act just like you act. And when you see them imitating you in a grotesque manner, then you know you have to change your behavior. Trump definitely looked as nervous as an apprentice that night. Countertransference had evidentlly occurred.
I think "transference" is supposed to be something like a "break-through." The therapist feels real proud when they have annoyed you long enough to make you flip, by telling you that everything is your mother's fault, or nobody's fault, or your fault.
I had somewhat of a therapeutic relationship with a neighbor, when she was training to be a certified therapeutic massage therapist. From time to time she would spout out something that didn't make any sense. I thought it was just her craziness at first.
For one thing, I saw her at a fitness club, where the club organized chair massages for the members. You don't have to take any clothes off for this, so other people can watch. She hit a nerve on somebody and it caused pain. The "client" didn't want to do it any more, and she felt faint. I happened to have a piece of hard candy with me and offered it to her, and she grabbed it quickly, to relieve the low blood sugar or whatever.
The massage therapist said that she didn't cause the pain, the pain was already there. She actually talked about this to me later, and I may have heard her tell another client the same thing. By this time she had gone beyond massage therapy and was into another type of body work, which is also somewhat regulated.
When she was explaining her work to one of my relatives, she again mentioned the pain. My relative asked her what she had done to cause the pain. She denied that SHE had caused the pain. The relative asked her again what SHE had done that resulted in pain. She again denied that SHE had caused any pain.
He had to reword the question for the third time. What did she do just before the client felt the pain? She said, Oh. She finally gave an answer relating to some body part that she had worked on. The stupidity of the idea had never occurred to her. I thought she was just being dense, which happens sometimes.
After that, I tried to find out why a person would say something like that. I found out that it is taught to the therapists.
The Ethics of Touch
http://www.advanced-trainings.com/lkeen.html
Boundaries and Pain
"Pain is a boundary. It is the body's way of saying "too fast", "too deep", "too soon", and a number of other related messages. Sometimes, it means straight out "no". In response to the theory that the Rolfer, does not cause the pain, it is pain that is already there in the client's body, I think that it is important to note that if we are working in an area where there is pain, it doesn't matter whether it was already there, or whether we are the cause of it. Pain means we have come to the boundary. Respect it."
- - - - - - - - - - - -
I have actually seen this said in a movie.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The same types of issues and terminologies are found in relationships with social workers and court-ordered evaluations and therapies. These boundary issues are even written into state mental health care regulations.
- - - - - - - -
When my massage therapist friend says these crazy things, she says them in such a way that you are afraid to argue with her. I have been reluctant to challenge some of the bizarre things she has said, because some of the things could possibly relate to her belief system, and I was taught that it was not polite to ridicule that. Sometimes I just thought she was just "a little off."
One day I felt kind of talkative, and started arguing with one of her crazy ideas. She was so proud. She is from up North, and being able to beat someone in an argument is considered to be very high class. In the South, we smile to your face and stab you in the back.
She asked me why I didn't argue back all the time, and challenge her. I said, "For the same reason I don't ridicule a retarded person. It is not good manners."
She said, "Are you calling me retarded?"
Now you can tell she is not married, has no children, doesn't know what to do with her time or her money, and has a house full of books, tapes, and videos from self-awareness conferences and retreats. I worked with another person who acted like this, and after a while I started to ask her if she had gone to such-and-such-a training. They acted like clones and had never met.
This psychological mumbo jumbo stuff is taught all over the country and corporations pay big bucks to send their employees to workshops, not realizing what it is. Employees have had nervous breakdowns and sued their employers for stuff like this. One name for it is "large group awareness trainings" and one psychologist who described it was named Singer.
One of the mothers who testified at a Congressional hearing in Washington said that the social workers "don't get it." Parents are distraught about having their children kidnapped, and the social workers say the parents are mentally ill because of the way they act.
Social workers and therapists can't tell the difference between "a parent feeling pain" and "a mental health professional causing the client to feel pain." But this is exactly what they are taught.
DSM-IV Multiaxial System of diagnosis for mental conditions
http://psyweb.com/Mdisord/MdisordADV/AdvPsych.jsp
Behavior Therapy
"Focus will be on present and overt behavior."
If your children have been kidnapped, your caseworker is sadistic, your lawyer won't answer the phone, you have been ordered to pay child support, and you can't get your children back until your husband divorces you, then all of that doesn't matter.
FOCUS WILL BE ON PRESENT AND OVERT BEHAVIOR.
I read that article several years ago, and it has stuck in my mind for a long time. I have benefitted from the information in it several times -- not in court though.
I suppose it could also provide some insight into counseling. The phenomenon that occurs in psychotherapy is called "transference" and "counter-transference." I will try to do some research on that. It falls under the category of the "therapeutic relationship."
From what I can gather, transference is when the patient starts acting like the therapist, and countertransference is when the therapist starts acting like the patient. If you understand the dynamics well enough, and if you can manipulate the therapist enough, you can get them to act unprofessional.
I think children who have attachment disorders are supposed to be good at this. They have had so many different caregivers, they learn how to mimic and mirror each new caregiver very quickly in order to survive.
The best place to see narcissism and this transference business is on The Apprentice on TV. The first person to mimic Donald Trump was the famous Omarosa. She was the first to interrupt the board room meeting, speak out of turn and attack someone. Donald Trump didn't fire Omarosa that day, but he fired the girl who didn't respond to the unfair attacks, because she didn't defend herself.
She didn't know she was supposed to counter rudeness with rudeness while Donald was running the show. This was a new rule. Well, the rest is history. Every boardroom since then has been plagued with verbal abuse and a free-for-all.
From Day One of the show, every boardroom resulted in EVERYBODY acting in whatever way was sanctioned by Trump in the boardroom. The candidates ALL followed each new rule that came up in the board room, and inevitably one person would test the new rule, either the next week or several weeks later. For every rule that Donald came up with, someone tested it until they made a liar out of him.
By the third season, the candidates gradually started to realize that this wasn't about rules, it was about winning. And whoever succeeded in making a fool out of Donald the most was going to be fired next. One girl really cut him down in the boardroom, just like he had done so many times to the others, and he fired her on the spot. He can dish it out, but he can't take it.
At the end of the third season, there were two women left. One acted normal and got along very well with her team-mates in hosting a celebrity event. She had been a school teacher.
The other woman did a grotesque imitation of Donald Trump in her management of an event, I think it was an Olympics- related event. She was nasty to her team, condescending, and the whole nine yards, and it was very obvious that she was trying to mimic Donald. Being queen for the day went straight to her head.
After they showed that episode in the hour before the live season finale, Donald was quite speechless when he came on the air. It was a very awkward moment, to see himself mirrored in such a grotesque manner. He was quite literally afraid to say anything before thinking first, and you could see him hesitate before every last sentence he spoke. He had to literally bite his tongue.
He finally "got it," what all school teachers learn the first week. The kids are going to act just like you act. And when you see them imitating you in a grotesque manner, then you know you have to change your behavior. Trump definitely looked as nervous as an apprentice that night. Countertransference had evidentlly occurred.
I think "transference" is supposed to be something like a "break-through." The therapist feels real proud when they have annoyed you long enough to make you flip, by telling you that everything is your mother's fault, or nobody's fault, or your fault.
I had somewhat of a therapeutic relationship with a neighbor, when she was training to be a certified therapeutic massage therapist. From time to time she would spout out something that didn't make any sense. I thought it was just her craziness at first.
For one thing, I saw her at a fitness club, where the club organized chair massages for the members. You don't have to take any clothes off for this, so other people can watch. She hit a nerve on somebody and it caused pain. The "client" didn't want to do it any more, and she felt faint. I happened to have a piece of hard candy with me and offered it to her, and she grabbed it quickly, to relieve the low blood sugar or whatever.
The massage therapist said that she didn't cause the pain, the pain was already there. She actually talked about this to me later, and I may have heard her tell another client the same thing. By this time she had gone beyond massage therapy and was into another type of body work, which is also somewhat regulated.
When she was explaining her work to one of my relatives, she again mentioned the pain. My relative asked her what she had done to cause the pain. She denied that SHE had caused the pain. The relative asked her again what SHE had done that resulted in pain. She again denied that SHE had caused any pain.
He had to reword the question for the third time. What did she do just before the client felt the pain? She said, Oh. She finally gave an answer relating to some body part that she had worked on. The stupidity of the idea had never occurred to her. I thought she was just being dense, which happens sometimes.
After that, I tried to find out why a person would say something like that. I found out that it is taught to the therapists.
The Ethics of Touch
http://www.advanced-trainings.com/lkeen.html
Boundaries and Pain
"Pain is a boundary. It is the body's way of saying "too fast", "too deep", "too soon", and a number of other related messages. Sometimes, it means straight out "no". In response to the theory that the Rolfer, does not cause the pain, it is pain that is already there in the client's body, I think that it is important to note that if we are working in an area where there is pain, it doesn't matter whether it was already there, or whether we are the cause of it. Pain means we have come to the boundary. Respect it."
- - - - - - - - - - - -
I have actually seen this said in a movie.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The same types of issues and terminologies are found in relationships with social workers and court-ordered evaluations and therapies. These boundary issues are even written into state mental health care regulations.
- - - - - - - -
When my massage therapist friend says these crazy things, she says them in such a way that you are afraid to argue with her. I have been reluctant to challenge some of the bizarre things she has said, because some of the things could possibly relate to her belief system, and I was taught that it was not polite to ridicule that. Sometimes I just thought she was just "a little off."
One day I felt kind of talkative, and started arguing with one of her crazy ideas. She was so proud. She is from up North, and being able to beat someone in an argument is considered to be very high class. In the South, we smile to your face and stab you in the back.
She asked me why I didn't argue back all the time, and challenge her. I said, "For the same reason I don't ridicule a retarded person. It is not good manners."
She said, "Are you calling me retarded?"
Now you can tell she is not married, has no children, doesn't know what to do with her time or her money, and has a house full of books, tapes, and videos from self-awareness conferences and retreats. I worked with another person who acted like this, and after a while I started to ask her if she had gone to such-and-such-a training. They acted like clones and had never met.
This psychological mumbo jumbo stuff is taught all over the country and corporations pay big bucks to send their employees to workshops, not realizing what it is. Employees have had nervous breakdowns and sued their employers for stuff like this. One name for it is "large group awareness trainings" and one psychologist who described it was named Singer.
One of the mothers who testified at a Congressional hearing in Washington said that the social workers "don't get it." Parents are distraught about having their children kidnapped, and the social workers say the parents are mentally ill because of the way they act.
Social workers and therapists can't tell the difference between "a parent feeling pain" and "a mental health professional causing the client to feel pain." But this is exactly what they are taught.
DSM-IV Multiaxial System of diagnosis for mental conditions
http://psyweb.com/Mdisord/MdisordADV/AdvPsych.jsp
Behavior Therapy
"Focus will be on present and overt behavior."
If your children have been kidnapped, your caseworker is sadistic, your lawyer won't answer the phone, you have been ordered to pay child support, and you can't get your children back until your husband divorces you, then all of that doesn't matter.
FOCUS WILL BE ON PRESENT AND OVERT BEHAVIOR.
-
Frustrated
- Posts: 3916
- Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:15 am
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
Simple Statement: Jump High, Oh How High?
Never High enough. You are not good enough. you are thereby declared Child Abuser.
We must go through their loop holes and their Services and the Child/ren would never be returned back to you. Only small percentages of Children does get returned back home. After Months or even up to a Year, to Two before that happens.
I can't fathom HOW the Children FEELS in all of THis! Surely CPS/CAS has to know how the Children feels. Just plain heartless!
Never High enough. You are not good enough. you are thereby declared Child Abuser.
We must go through their loop holes and their Services and the Child/ren would never be returned back to you. Only small percentages of Children does get returned back home. After Months or even up to a Year, to Two before that happens.
I can't fathom HOW the Children FEELS in all of THis! Surely CPS/CAS has to know how the Children feels. Just plain heartless!
It is easy to steal from poor people. But don't do it. And don't take advantage of those poor people in court. The Lord is on their side. He supports them and he will take things away from any person that takes from them.~ Proverbs 22:22
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