Kept them at bay **UPDATE #5...The meeting**

[Homeschoolmom7]

Update #1
*******************************************************
My husband FINALLY got a call back from the original case worker (The one that has been on vacation and just returned to the office today). She stated in her message that she wanted to "Meet with my oldest 3 kids and possibly take them for interviewing , sit down and 'talk' and see our house" Never mind that she already interviewed (to the best of her ability) our youngest 4, saw our house and safety precautions last week. Well, my husband followed the plan, stated that because it was summer we'd been and would continue to be visiting family/friends and would not be available, but he would LOVE to have her over at 4PM today as he's made several safety updates that will prevent our little ones from 'escaping' again. She INSISTED our oldest 3 be present and my husband said it wasn't happening and wasn't necessary. My oldest 3 were not even in the home at the time that my little ones ventured out to the neighbor's house. They have NO knowledge of the situation and wouldn't be able to answer any questions regarding the 'incident' because they weren't even home! She got very snippy then and said that the state mandates that they interview EVERY member of the household to gain a "bigger, broader picture of what goes on in my house" Um...yeah, my kids will not be taking part in your witch hunt, thanks but no thanks. SO, when my husband made it clear that there would not be any further interviews with the kids but asked her again to come over, she refused and literally stated "I will talk to my supervisor and be in touch" Click...
So...What do I make of this? Is that typical for the SW to flat out lose interest in another home tour and shoot down a request (after she's made it) to see our safety improvements to keep our kids inside? WTH is she planning?? I feel like she genuinely believed we were vacationing but would it be typical for her to send someone over to snoop anyhow? Thanks!

**********************************



...but once CPS smells blood, they remember the scent and you're never truly 'safe' from them. Previously, our family has had MANY run ins with CPS. Aside from the last, all were a result of a 'tit for tat' game between my X and I. He could not contact me directly (restraining order) so he used CPS as a form of harassment. Every case has been unfounded and closed with a notice in the mail within a week. All together, in the last 4 years, he's called CPS somewhere around a dozen or more times. Every case has been 'unfounded and closed" It's true...our family is larger than typical and we homeschool, but we really don't have anything to hide.
Most recently my eldest children were at a sleepover for the first time (all together) ever. My middle 3 yr old took the opportunity to leave the house in the early hours of the morning, with her 2 toddler brothers. They quite literally took our family dog on a walk down the sidewalk 10-15 houses down. My husband and I believe they were out for around 15-20 mins before we realized they were gone (we were asleep and didn't hear them leave). We are not substance abusers or users, just legitimately sleeping. Our kids are accustom to playing with their elder siblings in the morning before breakfast, but without them around, they wandered off. We have two permanent child gates, child knob locks and deadbolts, but I also have a very bright 3yr old that thought enough to put shoes on her brothers' feet first, before leaving the house. When found, after my husband flagged a police officer down at the end of our road, we were told that a neighbor had found and brought them in approx 60 mins ago. My husband and I had been running through the neighborhood looking the whole time, and they were inside a neighbors home. We never would have stood a chance to get to them before the police did.
Immediately when the officers escorted the 3 kids and my husband home, they called CPS to do an emergency inspection. We promptly bathed and fed the kids, and the CPS worker came over just as all were looking clean and 'normal' (not covered in dirt from playing in the yard and sidewalk). CPS seemed annoyed to even be in my home, when it was clearly set up to be child proof, safe and clean. The worker asked the typical questions, nodded with satisfaction with the answers, quickly toured the kids rooms and left. Before she left she stated that we would receive a letter saying our case was closed within the week. (Exhale...I thought!)
5 days later (last Thurs) Just as I was letting my guard down, sure we'd receive a 'closed/unfounded' case letter soon....a pai of social workers and a police officer knock on my door with their "kid snatcher van" parked outside. I know enough to silence my kids and not answer the door. Just then I received two phone calls from the worker that had visited on that previous Sat. She wanted to call me to "make arrangements and speak with me regarding the *incident* last week". There was no mention about their visit to my home and as far as I'm concerned (since we didn't answer the door) There wasn't one. I didn't call her back immediately but had my husband call her the following day from his work phone....it went straight to voicemail and left a message stating that he was returning her call. He called the direct number she had left, again today around noon...again voicemail and another "returning your call message" left. Today in the mid afternoon, one of the SW that had appeared at my door last week, returned. I saw her, heard her knock and didn't answer the door. As far as I'm concerned, if they want my time they need to make an appt. At this point, I don't know what to think.
A week prior my 3 yr old had a 'scratch' from our family dog (12 week old puppy) on her upper lip. my husband took her in to make sure it wasn't an infection risk. The ER reported it as an animal injury and had him fill out specific forms. Of course because our puppy is too young for any Rabies vaccine, she's not vaccinated for Rabies yet. Animal control received miscommunication from the ER and attempted a routine quarantine on our puppy. After around 4 phone calls to animal control I believe I straightened everything out and made it clear that my daughter was not bitten. We never heard from them again. I have no doubt that the issue regarding our puppy in conjunction with our file a foot deep contributed to the visit from the workers on Thurs. The worker that visited on Saturday (mins after the police came) most likely had a kitten when she reviewed our file on Monday morning and immediately smelled blood. My 3 older children have yet to be interviewed on this open case...which I also believe they intend to do.
At this point, here's my plan (feel free to pick it apart and suggest otherwise). I will not be participating in their 'games' this time. I have had just about enough from this organization as a whole. My kids despise them and my 7yr old has already told me that if they come to talk to him he will refuse to say a word because it's his right not to. I will not be present but will have my husband take them through the home again to show them the safety improvements made to prevent such an 'adventure' from happening again. We installed door alarms, another lock and another permanent gate. We hope they will see our proactive measures taken to prevent another occurrence. Also, my older kids will not be interviewed. If they desire to speak with them...they can get a court order. My eldest 3 were not present and have no knowledge of the incident at all, therefore an interview on the matter is pointless and won't happen (I know this will piss them off)
Please feel free to contribute any criticism on our family's plan and story...I'm happy to take any advice you have to give!

[Homeschoolmom7]

I need to ask, but forgot; What do you make of the 'further investigation' regarding the 'incident' that was supposedly going to originally be closed within 'the week'. What is CPS trying to get at? Also, what type of action would need to be taken if they decided they wanted to essentially 'kidnap' my kids? (how could I tell this was their intention?) Also, is it unwise to not allow them to interview my older 3 kids? In my opinion the interview would hold no benefit to us, but would allow them to desperately search for any dirt they could find to make a negative ruling in the case. Thanks!

[Eljay]

If they showed up with the police and two SW & van, then that would indicate to me they have already secured a warrant to take the kids. I'd keep them away from the house until you find out. Can you go stay with someone out of state/county until then? Could dad go to the court and find out if there has been a petition submitted/approved?

I need to ask, but forgot; What do you make of the 'further investigation' regarding the 'incident' that was supposedly going to originally be closed within 'the week'.

They lie... the only reason they would show up with police is to execute a warrant or if there was DV in the home. It sounds like the investigating SW had a reasonable response, but either your history or the dog (non-)incident made a supervisor say, "oh, HELL no... let's go get those babies!" You know they sit far closer to the accounting office than the social workers.

What is CPS trying to get at? Also, what type of action would need to be taken if they decided they wanted to essentially 'kidnap' my kids? (how could I tell this was their intention?)

They would file a petition to take legal custody with the local juvenile/children's/family court. It would be an ex-parte motion if you were not invited/notified.

Also, is it unwise to not allow them to interview my older 3 kids? In my opinion the interview would hold no benefit to us, but would allow them to desperately search for any dirt they could find to make a negative ruling in the case. Thanks!

They have to investigate any report they get. In this recent situation, no, the older children weren't involved (or even home at the time) so it doesn't make sense that they would need to be interviewed. It doesn't even make sense to interview the younger children, really.... what are they going to get out of them??? Yes, do ask them up front exactly what they are investigating, specifically, and then you can hold them to their investigation needs, not a fishing expedition.

Just a warning, there was one mom who posted on here around the end of last year who had evil friends (suspected) that called on them for drugs & abuse 11 times, each time closed as unsubstantiated. On the 12th time, they took the kids, despite the fact that there was NO evidence whatsoever of neglect or abuse, because "if we get that many calls there must be SOMETHING wrong!" You seem very well prepared to fight.

Have you seen the Eljay script? It's how I advise people to respond when they come to the door. Maybe you can respond while dad sneaks the kids out the back door and to a neighbors....

If/when they come, be pleasant & polite, but firm and confident. They need to see that you are in control of yourself, your home & your family. Your initial exchange should be something like this:


CW: I'm here from CPS to investigate a report we received at CPS regarding your children.
You: Please wait here.... [run and get pad of paper & video recorder]
You (on your front porch): What is the allegation? Please speak slowly, I'm going to write this down in case my video recording fails.
CW: We received report that your home was filthy and unsafe for children.
You: Which rooms were allegedly messy?
CW: The report didn't say.
You: Are there any other allegations?
CW: We were told that you had no food in the home.
You: Are there any other allegations?
CW: No.
You: Please wait here... I will take a photo and bring you the evidence you need to close your report.
CW: I need to come and inspect.
You: Do you have a warrant?
CW: No.
You: Then I will preserve my 4th amendment right against illegal search & seizure and not allow you in. You can wait right here on the porch.
....
You: Here is a picture of the kitchen, living room, bathroom & child's room. Here is a picture of the stocked refrigerator & food pantry.
CW: I need to see a picture of your bedroom & basement.
You: Those are not rooms that the children are allowed in and not part of your investigation, which concerns only the children and, thus, the rooms they are allowed into.
CW: Grrrrrr.... well, I have to do a complete investigation and ask you more questions.
You: I've given you everything needed to close your investigation based on the allegations you provided.
CW: Do you take drugs?
You: This has nothing to do with the allegations you are investigating. You have enough information to close your case.
CW: Are you employed or on public assistance?
You: This has nothing to do with the allegations you are investigating. You have enough information to close your case.
CW: Has your child missed any school this week?
You: This has nothing to do with the allegations you are investigating. You have enough information to close your case.
CW: We need to determine whether your child is healthy. When did he last see a dentist?
You: This has nothing to do with the allegations you are investigating. You have enough information to close your case.
CW: Where is your husband and how much alcohol does he drink?
You: This has nothing to do with the allegations you are investigating. You have enough information to close your case.
CW: If you don't tell me, I'll take you to court.
You: This has nothing to do with the allegations you are investigating. You have enough information to close your case.

Do this all with a smile, calm and confident. Again, write down EVERYTHING (write down what you're going to say BEFORE you say it, then read it to his/her) while you're recording it. If you child needs your attention during this process, tell them that your child needs you and would they please wait on the porch while to tended to his/her needs. Shut door in face and do what you have to do, then come back when you're available.

Obviously adjust to your circumstances, and anything you DON'T feel confident answering at the time, tell them you'll respond in writing after you consult your attorney. You can also look at this letter which resulted in CPS never even responding to (case closed/dismissed/killed?):

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=11828

[Homeschoolmom7]

Thank you Eljay! I can't tell you how much I appreciate your response:) I will have my husband check through our local court tomorrow...any idea how we might go about doing that? Does he literally just go down to the county courthouse and ask to be directed to find information on a petition filed for legal custody?
I have a theory and it may very well be bogus....
Could it have been that the two SWs and police officer were showing up unexpectedly to administer a drug test? I/my husband do not use any drugs but I can see them attempting to reach and prove that substance/drug abuse led us not to be able to properly parent and supervise our 3 small children. In which case I'd most certainly refuse their drug test but promptly go to a local hospital for one of my own (or is that not a good idea?) Maybe I've done too much research on here? (lol)

[monkette31]

I've heard the same thing about the reporting, after a certain amount of "referrals", as they call them here, NO matter if they are ALL bogus, they will take the kids. THey can't have anyone around that has, ie 9 referrals over the past 3 years....too much liability for them.

Imagine how THEY would look!...that's all that matters to them, so they steal the kids.

I'm scared that they brought a van. It sounds like they are going to take the children. There are two people on this forum I've counted the last year that are not drug users whatsoever but their ON THE SPOT drug tests came back as dirty....don't trust her and I'll tell you for sure, the lady that investigated our family smokes pot herself.

I think if they had a warrant the police would be screaming and pounding....

You might be right, they're trying to put the squeeze on ya, good to not answer the door. Also, I read some dcfs policy in Illinois, where it states in plain language the investigating sw is directed to investigate BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THE alleged incident/abuse...which really means, let's go on a hunt to find anything that will stick. I even heard they will count out your prescription pills out of the bottle and if your meds are off, they will claim you're either abusing them or not taking them as directed....just to add to the report...

And I've heard of them looking at homes, saying they were good and then in the detention reports, they have lied and described horrible conditions....when they want your children, they will take them, especially if you trust them and talk with them. It does you NOT ONE ounce of good to talk to them....when they want them, they take them. You are very good for not answering the door. Made my day.

[Homeschoolmom7]

And I've heard of them looking at homes, saying they were good and then in the detention reports, they have lied and described horrible conditions....when they want your children, they will take them, especially if you trust them and talk with them. It does you NOT ONE ounce of good to talk to them....when they want them, they take them. You are very good for not answering the door. Made my day.

Damn...had I not had been so disheveled, thinking my 3 babies were gone, I'd have thought to bring out the video camera that I'd previously used to record the entire visit. Ugh...hindsight is 20/20 huh?

[Eljay]

Damn...had I not had been so disheveled, thinking my 3 babies were gone, I'd have thought to bring out the video camera that I'd previously used to record the entire visit. Ugh...hindsight is 20/20 huh?

Do it now, verbally documenting on the video that that is the normal status of the home.

For court, yes, go down there and ask. Most family/juv/cps cases are not searchable on on-line court systems. You could also call a law firm and ask for a paralegal to do the legwork for you (they run about $100-$150 an hour), but I don't know if they will release unless you actually secure an attorney to represent you. There are a lot of things I don't know. When it comes to juveniles and victims of abuse, there are privacy issues at stake so call a law office that deals with CPS and ask them.... usually, at least an initial consultation is free.

[Homeschoolmom7]

Update #1 posted

[Homeschoolmom7]

I need to add, I am sure this will trigger a court order to have full access to our home and take the kids for private interviews, but how will I know when this order is obtained? If we aren't around, will they literally just go door knocking until we're found? Will they let us know we have a legal obligation to make ourselves available? What will they typically do when the family isn't cooperative in giving them what they want?

[Eljay]

I need to add, I am sure this will trigger a court order to have full access to our home and take the kids for private interviews, but how will I know when this order is obtained? If we aren't around, will they literally just go door knocking until we're found? Will they let us know we have a legal obligation to make ourselves available? What will they typically do when the family isn't cooperative in giving them what they want?

A warrant is going to allow them to use force to enter your home. However.... in order to have a judge sign off, they are going to have to do some HUGE fictional embellishment to your case. Judges aren't going to be too inclined to approve a warrant for a couple of wandering toddlers and a dog scratch. Will they do it? It depends... are you in Kentucky? Indiana? LOL ... not going to name states, but there are some seriously corrupt CPS offices out there. But there are also some seriously wise judges who don't let CPS push them around.

[Eljay]

Update #1
***************************** She got very snippy then and said that the state mandates that they interview EVERY member of the household to gain a "bigger, broader picture of what goes on in my house" Um...yeah, my kids will not be taking part in your witch hunt, thanks but no thanks. SO, when my husband made it clear that there would not be any further interviews with the kids but asked her again to come over, she refused and literally stated "I will talk to my supervisor and be in touch" Click...
So...What do I make of this? Is that typical for the SW to flat out lose interest in another home tour and shoot down a request (after she's made it) to see our safety improvements to keep our kids inside? WTH is she planning?? I feel like she genuinely believed we were vacationing but would it be typical for her to send someone over to snoop anyhow? Thanks!

First, I have a request... please don't "update" older posts... just add new info to the end of the thread. When you put an update at the beginning, it makes it hard to follow in sequence, especially if the whole thread is new (i.e. new user or someone who hasn't been here in a month).

Second, I hope you recorded/transcribed the conversation.

Third, get the name & address of this person's supervisor and send them a letter stating that she refused to continue the investigation, she was rude, and she hung up on you.

Fourth, in this letter, ask for them to provide you with the state law/code that indicates that every member of your household is obligated to meet with them. I've looked and looked for the CA law and haven't see it anywhere.

Fifth, in this letter, assert that as far as you are aware, you've provided all relevant information to address the needs of the investigation and if there are any other allegations, would they please inform you of them in writing.

Would they "lose interest"? No, I don't think that's what was happening here... she was trying to assert her authority and tell YOU how the investigation was going to go. Good for you for standing your ground.

What state are you in again?

[Homeschoolmom7]

Update #1
***************************** She got very snippy then and said that the state mandates that they interview EVERY member of the household to gain a "bigger, broader picture of what goes on in my house" Um...yeah, my kids will not be taking part in your witch hunt, thanks but no thanks. SO, when my husband made it clear that there would not be any further interviews with the kids but asked her again to come over, she refused and literally stated "I will talk to my supervisor and be in touch" Click...
So...What do I make of this? Is that typical for the SW to flat out lose interest in another home tour and shoot down a request (after she's made it) to see our safety improvements to keep our kids inside? WTH is she planning?? I feel like she genuinely believed we were vacationing but would it be typical for her to send someone over to snoop anyhow? Thanks!

First, I have a request... please don't "update" older posts... just add new info to the end of the thread. When you put an update at the beginning, it makes it hard to follow in sequence, especially if the whole thread is new (i.e. new user or someone who hasn't been here in a month).

Second, I hope you recorded/transcribed the conversation.

Third, get the name & address of this person's supervisor and send them a letter stating that she refused to continue the investigation, she was rude, and she hung up on you.

Fourth, in this letter, ask for them to provide you with the state law/code that indicates that every member of your household is obligated to meet with them. I've looked and looked for the CA law and haven't see it anywhere.

Fifth, in this letter, assert that as far as you are aware, you've provided all relevant information to address the needs of the investigation and if there are any other allegations, would they please inform you of them in writing.

Would they "lose interest"? No, I don't think that's what was happening here... she was trying to assert her authority and tell YOU how the investigation was going to go. Good for you for standing your ground.

What state are you in again?

thanks again for some fantastic advice! Sorry about the 'update" First, my husband called (and has all communication with CPS since I am 'out of town') I don't believe he recorded or transcribed but we've kept a record of all calls. ect. Second, CPS no longer appears to be returning phone calls...as you will see by my next update:/ I still plan to write a letter, but I'm not thrilled with the direction in which this is going. BTW, We are in Wisconsin. I'm not sure about our particular county but the last county we lived in treated us like royalty compared to the county we're in now. I suppose it could be because our last county was a 'problem' county and where we live now, doesn't have near the abuse problems the last county did? I don't know...perhaps it just seemed that way.

[Homeschoolmom7]

Update #2
**********************************
Well...they tried to take my babies again today Just as suspected CPS and 3 police officers showed up again today (time #3 since last week Thursday). They attempted to enter my house, but my house is locked up tighter than Fort Knox. They jiggled the knobs and pounded for over an hour. One officer and social worker were at the front door kicking and screaming, while another officer circled around the house and the third pounded on the windows and the patio door. They kicked, rang the doorbell and screamed at the tops of their lungs...but never once said they had a warrant, so...I stayed safely inside with my insanely quiet, well behaved kids. They even screamed that if I didn't let them in they would arrest me...but thanks to this board I called their bluff, stayed quiet and inside. They left after around 90 minutes (30 of 'silent' stalking around my house and van)
Then, another SW called and stated that she was from social service "needed to speak with me tonight and I need to come out side immediately, law enforcement is present" (because police officers make everything more 'official'?) I never called back and don't plan to. My husband called and left a message last night "checking on everything since he'd not heard back from SW #1" but apparently they had a plan already in place and when we proclaimed they wouldn't get their way to interview my eldest 3 kids, they took action and FAST! It was around 18 hours after the phone call and they were trying to break down my door. Since it's Thursday I know they wanted my kids to interrogate all weekend of course, since we've been less than cooperative. Is this typical? Our house was immaculate when they entered the first time, our kids neat and friendly, our fridge well stocked...but they hadn't gotten their hands on my other kids! I'm a bit surprised they're taking such great lengths just to question my kids, is this typical? After such a 'door pounding' what's typically the next move? Should my husband continue to attempt to make contact...do we ignore them...do we try to still get them over to see our "safety' improvements? Thanks:)

[noroses4u2c]

I would move before they'd get my kids if I had the chance to do so.

They want to speak to the kids to twist what they say and build a case against you to take them from you. The truth does not matter. They only care about winning.

They may already have a warrant. They often don't mention it until the door is opened. The cops don't show up unless they intend to take children. Going to the court house to find out just enables them to serve it on you easier.

Although, in my case the workers forced their way into my home with no warrant and took my daughter. Had I known who was knocking that day, I wouldn't have answered the door. They were outside waiting to make sure I was home before knocking though. It was perfectly set up. My daughter's therapist had even helped make sure I was at home that morning to help them take her. My daughter was in therapy because of a suicide attempt. She called at the last minute to cancel, but it was after she should've been in school. Her appointment was going to make her late for school that morning. Everyone at the government counseling center, the only counseling really approved for low income patients, is a social worker instead of a real therapist. Low income people cannot get real therapy. You can go there and be grieving because of a death in the family, for example, and they will say you are mentally ill and just dope you up when you just needed someone to talk to about things. (The government has even been pushing to have grief lasting over a couple weeks be labeled as a mental illness. It used to be that mental illness was a chemical imbalance of the brain. Now the government labels anything it can as a mental illness.) If they go there many end up with CPS knocking at their doors. (Don't ever move to KY.)

Preventing your kids from being taken in the first place is vital.

[Homeschoolmom7]

I would move before they'd get my kids if I had the chance to do so.

They want to speak to the kids to twist what they say and build a case against you to take them from you. The truth does not matter. They only care about winning.

They may already have a warrant. They often don't mention it until the door is opened. The cops don't show up unless they intend to take children. Going to the court house to find out just enables them to serve it on you easier.

Although, in my case the workers forced their way into my home with no warrant and took my daughter. Had I known who was knocking that day, I wouldn't have answered the door. They were outside waiting to make sure I was home before knocking though. It was perfectly set up. My daughter's therapist had even helped make sure I was at home that morning to help them take her. My daughter was in therapy because of a suicide attempt. She called at the last minute to cancel, but it was after she should've been in school. Her appointment was going to make her late for school that morning. Everyone at the government counseling center, the only counseling really approved for low income patients, is a social worker instead of a real therapist. Low income people cannot get real therapy. You can go there and be grieving because of a death in the family, for example, and they will say you are mentally ill and just dope you up when you just needed someone to talk to about things. (The government has even been pushing to have grief lasting over a couple weeks be labeled as a mental illness. It used to be that mental illness was a chemical imbalance of the brain. Now the government labels anything it can as a mental illness.) If they go there many end up with CPS knocking at their doors. (Don't ever move to KY.)

Preventing your kids from being taken in the first place is vital.

I'm so sorry:( I imagine that day plays in your head over and over. I know that today will for me. If the police had a warrant, in your case, why did they need you to open the door? Wouldn't they just have used force to break in? I was under the impression that there were three distint ways CPS was allowed to take your kids, a warrant being one (I'm not sure of the other 2) What is the warrant really for, though. I've only ever heard of arrest warrants, but are there warrants specifically to take kids?
What you said about the therapist really scares me. I have a therapist appt on monday. It'll be my first time at this doctor and I've not yet even given them my insurance info. Will CPS have any way of knowing where my doctor is or that I've made an appt.? Will it somehow be flagged on the state's insurance site? (we have state insurance)

[Homeschoolmom7]

NoRoses4U2C, when you say you'd move before they could take your kids....can you do that? I was under the impression that if you run; to say another state or even county, there's a 'blanket' child removal law. If my kids are set for removal in one state, they will face removal wherever we go. Or isn't this true? How does one go about 'moving' when CPS is on your butt?

[noroses4u2c]

I would move before they'd get my kids if I had the chance to do so.

They want to speak to the kids to twist what they say and build a case against you to take them from you. The truth does not matter. They only care about winning.

They may already have a warrant. They often don't mention it until the door is opened. The cops don't show up unless they intend to take children. Going to the court house to find out just enables them to serve it on you easier.

Although, in my case the workers forced their way into my home with no warrant and took my daughter. Had I known who was knocking that day, I wouldn't have answered the door. They were outside waiting to make sure I was home before knocking though. It was perfectly set up. My daughter's therapist had even helped make sure I was at home that morning to help them take her. My daughter was in therapy because of a suicide attempt. She called at the last minute to cancel, but it was after she should've been in school. Her appointment was going to make her late for school that morning. Everyone at the government counseling center, the only counseling really approved for low income patients, is a social worker instead of a real therapist. Low income people cannot get real therapy. You can go there and be grieving because of a death in the family, for example, and they will say you are mentally ill and just dope you up when you just needed someone to talk to about things. (The government has even been pushing to have grief lasting over a couple weeks be labeled as a mental illness. It used to be that mental illness was a chemical imbalance of the brain. Now the government labels anything it can as a mental illness.) If they go there many end up with CPS knocking at their doors. (Don't ever move to KY.)

Preventing your kids from being taken in the first place is vital.

I'm so sorry:( I imagine that day plays in your head over and over. I know that today will for me. If the police had a warrant, in your case, why did they need you to open the door? Wouldn't they just have used force to break in? I was under the impression that there were three distint ways CPS was allowed to take your kids, a warrant being one (I'm not sure of the other 2) What is the warrant really for, though. I've only ever heard of arrest warrants, but are there warrants specifically to take kids?
What you said about the therapist really scares me. I have a therapist appt on monday. It'll be my first time at this doctor and I've not yet even given them my insurance info. Will CPS have any way of knowing where my doctor is or that I've made an appt.? Will it somehow be flagged on the state's insurance site? (we have state insurance)

The police didn't show up at my door that day. It was two social workers. They physically forced their way in when I opened the door. They had no warrant. No one cared. The judge even said she didn't care about my constitutional rights.

State's insurance? Like medicaid?

[noroses4u2c]

NoRoses4U2C, when you say you'd move before they could take your kids....can you do that? I was under the impression that if you run; to say another state or even county, there's a 'blanket' child removal law. If my kids are set for removal in one state, they will face removal wherever we go. Or isn't this true? How does one go about 'moving' when CPS is on your butt?

Well, have you been served with any court papers at all? What has happened so far?

[Eljay]

I was under the impression that there were three distint ways CPS was allowed to take your kids, a warrant being one (I'm not sure of the other 2)

Three legal ways:
1 - court ordered custody wherein they testify via petition to a judge that the children are victims of abuse/neglect and should be wards of the state
2 - children are in imminent risk of abuse neglect (house is unfit for humans, persistent abuse, parents under debilitating influence of drugs/etc., parents dead, etc.)
3 - parent(s) voluntarily surrender child(ren) due to inability to provide care for them (often the case with severely disabled or mentally ill children, or parents are temporarily unable to care for children and have no friends/family to help)

What is the warrant really for, though. I've only ever heard of arrest warrants, but are there warrants specifically to take kids?

A warrant is a general term for a legal order or permission. You've probably heard of a "search warrant" which is what a police officer would get to be able to search your home. They could get a warrant to get access to the children, but they would likely just lie about alleged abuse to get legal custody.

Good reading/reinforcement I just ran across: http://www.bransonlegal.com/Ten_Things.html

Listen to the words of an ex-CPS investigator:

"I wish I could shout from the highest mountain to parents to vigilantly learn their rights! If they knew what their legal rights were there would be significantly lower numbers of child removals. Social workers, unlike policemen making an arrest, are not required to inform the parents of their legal rights. All we had to do to remove a child was to show up at the home and tell the parents we came to remove the kids. Often times we would take a police officer with us (never telling the parents he was there for MY protection, not to enforce an order or warrant). 99% of the time we never had to get a warrant or court order to remove kids because the parents would be so intimidated by the officer that they would just hand their kids over and show up for court the next day. But if they had legally known their parental rights, they could simply have told me that I could not take the children unless I had a court order signed by the judge or had a warrant to remove the kids. ... the majority of times parents were just intimidated and gave consent for the whole process to begin; completely unknowing of what rights they just waived."

What you said about the therapist really scares me. I have a therapist appt on monday. It'll be my first time at this doctor and I've not yet even given them my insurance info. Will CPS have any way of knowing where my doctor is or that I've made an appt.? Will it somehow be flagged on the state's insurance site? (we have state insurance)

Your doctor/therapist is bound by HIPAA laws and cannot/should not share your medical information with ANYONE without your express, written consent. If/when your case moves forward, CPS often asks parents to consent to a psych eval (and likely with you because only crazy people homeschool their children, right? LOL) so that appt would be a good time for you to lay the groundwork for your mental wellness and protective maternal instincts in the event that this goes that far. Now remember.... just like CPS is trying to intimidate & bully you, they may try the same with your therapist and/or the office's record keepers so make sure, early on, that you clarify with them what THEY think their obligations are to protect your records. If they say, "oh those CPS people are here all the time and they told us that we HAVE to give them all of our records because they are HIPAA exempt" then you need to decide whether to run away or very carefully manage your words.

[Eljay]

One more thing.... okay, two more....

I would consider having your husband call the local Police *AND* the DIRECTOR of your local CPS office and say, "my neighbors told me that your people were here for over an hour yesterday pounding on the doors with the police, yet the caseworker refuses to return my phone calls and continue the investigation. What sort of games are you people playing?"

Second, if/when they do show up with a court order, you know that you need to look it over completely first, and make sure it is SIGNED by a judge. I think it was in Ohio that they were literally rubber stamping the judges' signatures on their CPS petitions. Read the warrant over... the judge may compel you to allow them to interview the kids, not TAKE the kids, so hold them to what it says.

Still.... I'd be packing everyone up and heading to grandma's for a few weeks. :/

[Homeschoolmom7]

I would move before they'd get my kids if I had the chance to do so.

They want to speak to the kids to twist what they say and build a case against you to take them from you. The truth does not matter. They only care about winning.

They may already have a warrant. They often don't mention it until the door is opened. The cops don't show up unless they intend to take children. Going to the court house to find out just enables them to serve it on you easier.

Although, in my case the workers forced their way into my home with no warrant and took my daughter. Had I known who was knocking that day, I wouldn't have answered the door. They were outside waiting to make sure I was home before knocking though. It was perfectly set up. My daughter's therapist had even helped make sure I was at home that morning to help them take her. My daughter was in therapy because of a suicide attempt. She called at the last minute to cancel, but it was after she should've been in school. Her appointment was going to make her late for school that morning. Everyone at the government counseling center, the only counseling really approved for low income patients, is a social worker instead of a real therapist. Low income people cannot get real therapy. You can go there and be grieving because of a death in the family, for example, and they will say you are mentally ill and just dope you up when you just needed someone to talk to about things. (The government has even been pushing to have grief lasting over a couple weeks be labeled as a mental illness. It used to be that mental illness was a chemical imbalance of the brain. Now the government labels anything it can as a mental illness.) If they go there many end up with CPS knocking at their doors. (Don't ever move to KY.)

Preventing your kids from being taken in the first place is vital.

I'm so sorry:( I imagine that day plays in your head over and over. I know that today will for me. If the police had a warrant, in your case, why did they need you to open the door? Wouldn't they just have used force to break in? I was under the impression that there were three distint ways CPS was allowed to take your kids, a warrant being one (I'm not sure of the other 2) What is the warrant really for, though. I've only ever heard of arrest warrants, but are there warrants specifically to take kids?
What you said about the therapist really scares me. I have a therapist appt on monday. It'll be my first time at this doctor and I've not yet even given them my insurance info. Will CPS have any way of knowing where my doctor is or that I've made an appt.? Will it somehow be flagged on the state's insurance site? (we have state insurance)

The police didn't show up at my door that day. It was two social workers. They physically forced their way in when I opened the door. They had no warrant. No one cared. The judge even said she didn't care about my constitutional rights.

State's insurance? Like medicaid?

Hmm..It's not medicaid, but maybe similar? It's state based insurance for low income, called Badgercare.

[Homeschoolmom7]

Well..my kids are as good as gone! Last night, prior to CPS and the police knocking on my door, I had an argument with my mom after she had watched my kids for me. A little background on my mother; At 17 I got into an argument with my mom, she hit me, giving me a black eye, was arrested, plead guilty to child abuse but had charges dropped down to a misdemeanor something or another.
Ok, so...my mom has sought treatment for mental problems, is medicated and up until last night has appeared stable...or stable enough. The abuse mentioned occurred around 12 years ago. Fast forward to last night....
I had my mom come over to watch my kids for approx 2 hours. I had errands to run and an appt to go to. When I cam home my mom immediately accused my husband of "biting my sons nose' I looked at my 5 yr olds face and on his right cheek was a fair amount of petechia and on his nose was a very faint bruise/discoloration. We went round and round about whether it had been there or what had happened and she told me that my son had told her that my husband had "bitten him on the nose" I pretty much told her she was insane since my husband hadn't been any where near my kids and works 11 hour days and is generally never alone with them. Already heated, my mom attempted to undermine my parenting when I assigned my 10 year a chore to do, before she was allowed to leave with grandma. My mom ended up enraged that my daughter needed to finish her chore and did the chore for her. Of course, being the parent, I insisted my daughter wasn't going anywhere and that she simply needed to leave. She completely lost control, told me that I was married to a child abuser and she was going to call CPS herself on us. She went to her car (where she had carried laundry baskets of sheets she intended to take to the laundry mat for us) and threw the baskets at me as I stood in the living room. I asked her to calm down and my children can testify to my attempt to diffuse the situation. She continued to yell and scream on my front porch that SHE was going to take my kids herself, to which I replied, "Not as a convicted child abuser you won't!" And she left. My children can attest to the fact that I never yelled, threatened or raised my voice. Later, upon further questioning, I discovered that my son had never been bitten as previously accused, but insisted that grandma had slapped his face for throwing toys and pulled his pants down the spank his butt. It only took 12 hours...but he admitted that SHE had abused him. Now, it's Friday, the day after my argument with my mom and the day after I wrongly assumed that CPS was simply at my door as a continuation of the previous case. I received a phone call a few hours ago from our original SW stating that she had received a report last night and she understands that my son had an injury caused by his step father and that she realizes things got out of hand and she is sorry to hear that but she needs to come and see the kids and talk to us about my sons' injury and "she doesn't want to take the kids or anything but really needs to meet with us" Right. Well...it's now confirmed that yesterdays "pounding' was a result of my mom's attempt to peg us for an injury SHE caused my son. My husband called back the SW and left a message explaining the situation and that I would be filing a restraining order on behalf of my kids, against my mother. Is there anything else, at this point that I can do? My mother just nailed the coffin shut on any prayer of getting CPS off my back and she KNOWS it. She holds resentment against me and has now gotten her chance at revenge.

[Eljay]

At 17 I got into an argument with my mom, she hit me, giving me a black eye, was arrested, plead guilty to child abuse but had charges dropped down to a misdemeanor something or another.
Ok, so...my mom has sought treatment for mental problems, is medicated and up until last night has appeared stable...or stable enough. The abuse mentioned occurred around 12 years ago. Fast forward to last night....
...
My mother just nailed the coffin shut on any prayer of getting CPS off my back and she KNOWS it. She holds resentment against me and has now gotten her chance at revenge.

Oh chit. Here's the deal.... You've got a VERRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY fine line to walk right now. If they find out that you left your children in the hands of a known abuser, they will slap you with failure to protect. I certainly hope that this is the first abuse you've seen from her in 12+ years. Regardless, you do NOT want them to know about your mother's past because, although you've had 12 years of observation and watched her, thinking she was safe, they see things in black and white and will claim that you should have known better. Same with whatever her 'mental problems' are .... don't go throwing her under the bus for being psycho... through your careful and continuous observation, she appeared to be well balanced with whatever medication she was taking.

At this point, I would have either an attorney or police/sheriff with you when you interview, at your home, but bring said child out on the porch with just one of you, leaving the others behind a lockable door with the other parent. The police/sheriff should be involved to take a formal complaint against your mother for the RO.

You do realize that you have to allow them to complete their investigation, but I'm very concerned about them showing up with multiple SWs, multiple police, etc. They might try throwing their weight around. You need to befriend the police and ask THEM to confirm your rights to not have your children taken based on your mother's lie.

BTW, I hope you see her behavior as inexcusable. Her actions could lead to the destruction of your family. She's got to leave you alone. I hope you have no regrets filing a restraining order against her.

[MaggieNYC]

Perhaps I have missed something here but the Home School Organization has a very powerful legal team in force that has taken CPS on in the past. Truth be told, I have skimmed through these posts and perhaps I have missed something but has the original poster even contacted the Home School Organization?

[Homeschoolmom7]

At 17 I got into an argument with my mom, she hit me, giving me a black eye, was arrested, plead guilty to child abuse but had charges dropped down to a misdemeanor something or another.
Ok, so...my mom has sought treatment for mental problems, is medicated and up until last night has appeared stable...or stable enough. The abuse mentioned occurred around 12 years ago. Fast forward to last night....
...
My mother just nailed the coffin shut on any prayer of getting CPS off my back and she KNOWS it. She holds resentment against me and has now gotten her chance at revenge.

Oh chit. Here's the deal.... You've got a VERRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY fine line to walk right now. If they find out that you left your children in the hands of a known abuser, they will slap you with failure to protect. I certainly hope that this is the first abuse you've seen from her in 12+ years. Regardless, you do NOT want them to know about your mother's past because, although you've had 12 years of observation and watched her, thinking she was safe, they see things in black and white and will claim that you should have known better. Same with whatever her 'mental problems' are .... don't go throwing her under the bus for being psycho... through your careful and continuous observation, she appeared to be well balanced with whatever medication she was taking.

At this point, I would have either an attorney or police/sheriff with you when you interview, at your home, but bring said child out on the porch with just one of you, leaving the others behind a lockable door with the other parent. The police/sheriff should be involved to take a formal complaint against your mother for the RO.

You do realize that you have to allow them to complete their investigation, but I'm very concerned about them showing up with multiple SWs, multiple police, etc. They might try throwing their weight around. You need to befriend the police and ask THEM to confirm your rights to not have your children taken based on your mother's lie.

BTW, I hope you see her behavior as inexcusable. Her actions could lead to the destruction of your family. She's got to leave you alone. I hope you have no regrets filing a restraining order against her.

Ohh...they already know... the 'anonymous' caller already clued them in but also mentioned that she had been seeing a psych for the last 12 years and has been medicated (obviously the not so anonymous tip line had the caller identify themselves through facts, huh?) No doubt she was the caller:/
When these things were mentioned to my husband while on speaker phone, I immediately had him mention that she's been in the care of a psych, has been medicated and our immediate (always present) child psychologist (sister) my aunt, has always been around during the visits and would be able to 'watch' my children while they visited with grandma (and she felt everything was safe). I really feel like my mom 'outed' herself as a way to destroy me. This really was the revenge she had waited so many years for! I spoke with a few attorneys today (not that I will be able to retain them) and both suggested I hold off on the restraining order because "it's not like she's going to break into your home or force herself to your children" My husband mentioned it today to the CPS worker while he set up a 'meeting' for Wednesday but I almost feel like allowing them to know I plan on filing a restraining order on Monday, pretty much pegs me at our local courthouse on monday...ripe for their picking (if they're still searching for me!) I have no doubt, that despite our cooperation in setting up a meeting, they will continue to attempt to catch me at home. Truth be told...I am terrified of going home and even though I fully expect them to take my children on Wednesday...I cannot take a surprise 'door pounding' again.
If I have a police sheriff present (which they may already have planned) what good will they do me...aside from asserting the law more clearly on the SW behalf:/ Do you have any pointers on helpful ways to befriend the police? i was told by an attorney today that if the child is involved in a crime (abuse) investigation, the police have every right to take the child for questioning without a court order? please tell me this isn't true!! I fully intend to insist upon seeing the court order/warrant, before I allow a single child out my door. Will the police (is it typical) that they attempt to leave without an order?? What did you mean by 'throw their weight around" ?