Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

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I_Hate_CPS
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Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:34 pm

So recently I had a hearing to determine whether or not an open investigation against me was founded, and it was.

The “evidence” CYS presented was the therapist/forensic psychologist (yes, she fills 2 roles) saying my 5-year-old daughter said I masturbated in front of her, told her how to do it, and had the children suck on my breasts because it feels good.

Last week (before this hearing) my lawyer and I went to a hearing in front of the judge to try and get my daughter independently forensically evaluated. Our argument (backed by expert testimony) of a place in a major city that ONLY does forensic interviews (and is heavily involved with the local CYS for that reason) said the therapist/forensic used in my case had basically screwed up royally by combining the two roles.

Opposing council said the experience would be too traumatic and should not be done. Judge ruled in their favor.

So yesterday during the hearing we tried our best but the judge was set against us from the word go, so it came back founded.

We even brought up the fact the therapist does NOT have video recordings of these forensic interviews (which she is supposed to do) but the judge didn’t care.

We’ve considered an appeal but our lawyer (who has fought like crazy for us this whole time) has said he doesn’t think we have a snowball’s chance in hell.

His feeling is they are likely to petition to stop reunification then terminate parental rights. By this point I’ve accepted this is the likely scenario, but I figured it was worth at least posting here and seeing if anyone has any ideas.

I’ve added a little more background info at the bottom of this post, and will be happy to share other details if anyone has further questions.
My question is… what are my options? My lawyer’s brought up great points, but the judge shot them down each time.

Any ideas on what may be able to help us out? We’re pretty much out of options, here, so I figured it couldn’t hurt to get more info.
We’re currently in the process of finding a lawyer for a second opinion (if anyone knows a good one in PA, sing out). However, we don’t expect it to be any different, as during our research it seems like our lawyer has done everything right (and is freaking amazing in the courtroom).

I’m guessing we just have to accept the fact the state can – and will – take my kids for no reason and there’s nothing I can do to stop them, but if there’s an alternative, that’d be great.

Further info:

Children were originally removed in April 2012. Founded dependent in June due to daughter allegedy saying “mmm, tasty” when asked about vaginas by therapist.
CYS have opened 3 investigations, first came back unfounded, second indciated, third founded – all based solely on therapist’s forensic analysis of my daughter.(We still have an appeal for #2 but it’s unlikely we’ll win)

I haven’t had contact with children (not even photos) in 6 months, under advisement from therapist.

Children are in kinship home with paternal grandparents, who hate my guts. Paternal father currently imprisoned in CA for statutory rape. No charges have been leveled against him in this case.
Guardian Ad Litem has only spoken to me once, introducing himself. He laughs and jokes with CYS and grandparents at all hearings. In short, it’s me vs. everyone else.
Grandparents have been telling therapist/CYS my daughter has been observed masturbating, which led to the further abuse allegations. First one was because my daughter said “Mmm, tasty” when asked about vaginas (allegedly).

Because I was living in the grandparent’s house at the time (a second house they bought for me when I was still with my ex, their son), they had legal reason to enter and take photos. There was some clutter around, hard water stains on toilets, etc… and of course they made this a huge deal about that, even calling the downstairs basement with a bed in it a “sex dungeon” because it had a BDSM paddle in the cupboard. Obviously, I moved as soon as they did that into my own house.

The daycare I sent the children to was in league with the grandparents. They said I didn't change the children's diapers for a whole weekend. Believe me, my kids took their diapers off themselves. There's no possible way that could have happened. They then testified at the original dependence hearing against me.

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Eljay
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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:48 pm

Best case I can think of that your attorney should bring up is one in which the appellate (IMS) court reversed the findings/TPR because testimony was based *ENTIRELY* on hearsay... there was not one, single piece of direct evidence from the child to corroborate the stories. Now, the rest of the case sounds pretty sleazy, but the foundation of using purely hearsay is what is important here.

It may be more important to reference the founding SCOTUS case, Crawford vs. Washington, but this one is specifically a CPS TPR case like yours is going to be in a year:

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/docume ... 001979.pdf
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:32 pm

Thank you for the reply Elijay.

Unfortunately, in PA a therapist's testimony is not considered "hearsay" the same as it would be in other states.

That is, there is no legal impetus for the witness (child) or evidence to be submitted.

Yeah, it's messed up. And the case is sleazy as hell (aren't they all?), but sadly it doesn't seem like anyone cares - I'm sure you know the feeling!

Thankyou so much for your reply, though unless I'm incorrect, I don't think what you propose will be of any benefit to us.

Nonetheless, I appreciate it beyond words.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby monkette31 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:47 pm

I would appeal and try and submit as much information as you can for your case. I would submit and Affadavit of Facts denying absolutely any such abuse, just so that it is on the record. Try and file and Objections and Corrections to their report questioning the interviewer, etc., not following procedures, so that is also on the record. Of course you are going to appeal the termination of your rights, so NOW is the time to get things on the record for the appeal.

As it stands, if you do not contest the charges, in some official form, later they will tell you that you did not dispute the charges, the appellate court will see no evidence (because of your lack of sumitting documents, etc..) that you disputed the horrendous charges, so in some doctrines, they'll not even able to see you in the most favorable light!
I'm not a lawyer but will try and help you any way i can. My postings may seem harsh but they all stem from personal experience with DCFS. I am not a victim and take responsibility for my part in my life, but I will always help ANYONE learn about the corrupt sick system.

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Eljay
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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:11 am

I_Hate_CPS wrote:Thank you for the reply Elijay.

Unfortunately, in PA a therapist's testimony is not considered "hearsay" the same as it would be in other states.

That is, there is no legal impetus for the witness (child) or evidence to be submitted.

Yeah, it's messed up. And the case is sleazy as hell (aren't they all?), but sadly it doesn't seem like anyone cares - I'm sure you know the feeling!

Thankyou so much for your reply, though unless I'm incorrect, I don't think what you propose will be of any benefit to us.

Nonetheless, I appreciate it beyond words.


Of course it's hearsay.... if the therapist says, "child said that father touched her privates" then it is hearsay. Hearsay *IS* allowable in juvenile/civil court proceedings. The finer point of the case is that the state may not base their case ENTIRELY, 100% on hearsay. The other testimony/hearsay *IS* admissable and can be relied upon, but hearsay can not be the ENTIRETY of the evidence submitted.
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:13 am

Very cool. I'll pass it along to my lawyer and see what he says, and report back.

I appreciate your help a lot, by the way.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:20 am

Further questions, Elijay...

1) Would this likely be brought up during an appeal to the founded hearing?

2) Since my lawyer didn't catch this, should I look for a new one? He fights like a goddamn bulldog and he's an excellent attorney. He doesn't specialize in this (though does have 20 years experience fighting with CYS!). My feeling is anyone could have missed it, but I would appreciate your input.

3) I'm assuming the next step is to bring this up to my lawyer. Is that what you'd suggest?

Again, thank you so much for your advice. I appreciate it more than I can tell you. What can I do to repay your kindness?

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Eljay
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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:59 pm

I_Hate_CPS wrote:Further questions, Elijay...

1) Would this likely be brought up during an appeal to the founded hearing?


When you say "founded hearing" I think of a child abuse index listing administrative hearing, to have your name removed from the child abuse registry. Those registries use the terms "founded, unfounded, substantiated, unsubstantiated, indicated, ..." maybe a few more. Your COURT dependency hearings use "stipulated" (you agreed to the charges) or "adjudicated dependent" or not adjudicated dependent and a few other terms so... please clarify. You can have "appeals" in both of those.


2) Since my lawyer didn't catch this, should I look for a new one? He fights like a goddamn bulldog and he's an excellent attorney. He doesn't specialize in this (though does have 20 years experience fighting with CYS!). My feeling is anyone could have missed it, but I would appreciate your input.


Gawd no! If he's willing to FIGHT for you, he's fine! Keep in mind that that case involve *TPR* and your case isn't there yet, right? HOWEVER, it stands to reason that if you can't TPR on pure hearsay, you shouldn't be able to declare dependency on pure hearsay. The law is all about taking what worked in one case and saying your case is significantly similar and the law should apply. He might file something like a Motion to Vacate Order of Dependency and cite that case.

3) I'm assuming the next step is to bring this up to my lawyer. Is that what you'd suggest?


Well, that's what *I* would do. Also have him talk to Jacqueline Mark, a dependency atty in PA maybe... to pow-wow and talk strategy?
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-Offi ... 0682105810

Again, thank you so much for your advice. I appreciate it more than I can tell you. What can I do to repay your kindness?


Learn it, do it, teach it. Stick around, learn how to fight CPS and then help the next parents. There are some advocacy groups who need parent advocates to help them.

One of our fellow members is in PA and her county recently ruled that in was inappropriate for a 2 yr old to play with a PUPPY! There's some major corruption going on in PA!
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:10 am

Elijay,

Thanks, I'll give her a call Monday and set some stuff up.

To give you more background/clarification, CYS investigated me (third time now!) and decided, based on what my five year old allegedly said to the therapist/forensic psychologist, I was guilty of sexual abuse. In PA they then have to file a hearing before a judge, submit their evidence, and then the judge decides whether the case is deemed founded or unfounded.

So that's what I just went through.

Further questions...

1) Are you a lawyer or something? You know a ton about the law.

2) I have an internet marketing background, so if you're the site admin I could help redesign/manage the site, build word of mouth, do ad campaigns, etc. If any of this may be helpful let me know.

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Eljay
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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:58 am

I_Hate_CPS wrote:1) Are you a lawyer or something? You know a ton about the law.


Nooooo.... but I *love* the law and would love to be a lawyer. I have that sort of "logic" mentality that suits the legal profession and that is what probably allowed our case to end so quickly. I hunted down the law that they were trying to accuse my husband of (sexual abuse) and word-by-word asked them to justify how his actions met ANY part of the law in any way whatsoever. Once I went through that, the dependency investigator pretty much closed her book and admitted, there is NO molestation here. We should not even be involved in your lives. The whole experience, of course, awakened me to the severe corruption and abuse of the CPS system. So, for 2+ years I've been learning and helping other parents navigate through the system.

It's the same thing we strive to teach our kids about bullying... when you see a bully (CPS) picking on a helpless kid, you (other CPS victims) come together and help stop it (here's the law, here's how to fight, etc.).

2) I have an internet marketing background, so if you're the site admin I could help redesign/manage the site, build word of mouth, do ad campaigns, etc. If any of this may be helpful let me know.


LindaJM, whose name is in red at the top of most pages, is the site owner. I know she just went through an upgrade/change on the main site (fightcps.com) but contact her and let her know. Thanks!
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:21 pm

So I've got an update, and it isn't good news.

We called several lawyers who specialize in this sort of thing. They all said the same thing - an appeal will take at least a year, cost $10k, and our chances of actually winning are about 10%.

That's if we cited the cases Elijay pointed out above.

Even if we did overturn that... THEN overturn the otherstuff... CYS would continue to through shit at us through the grandparents and we'd do it all over again.

Essentially it will be five years and $100k or so before this is over, with a slim chance anyway, and frankly I don't think I can put myself through it for that long.

The people doing reunification for CYS (a separate agency) said at my next hearing in June they will be petitioning the judge to stop reunification. Since he had no problem screwing us over at any other point, and since the Guardian Ad Litem wants to rip the kids away, we're pretty much sunk.

I wish it was a different situation, but there you go.

After they terminate reunification they will likely push to terminate my parental rights, and again, it's unlikely I'll have much recourse to stop that happening - though obviously I'm going to fight my hardest.

At this stage, it's looking like there's a 50/50 chance I won't even be able to say goodbye to my children. All I can hope is that despite their young age (5/3) they remember their mom loves them and can see through the BS their grandparents will no doubt feed them.

Regardless, I did want to thank you for your help, Elijay.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:54 pm

Don't give up yet... are you in or near Berks County?
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:15 am

About a two and a half hour drive. I'm in Centre county, where Sandusky happened, which is probably why they're on such a vendetta against me.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:23 pm

Was your daughter ever interviewed by the POLICE? In a "real" forensic investigation of abuse? You, knowing your innocence, would want to get to the bottom of this.

I don't know that our Berks County contact would be able to help... maybe.... look over her stuff and see if you find anything of use and/or send her a PM/e-mail.

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=14013
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:14 pm

No. She was only interviewed by the therapist, who is doubling as the forensics person.

We had an expert from the firm that deals with forensic interviews for the Pittsburgh CYS be a witness for us, telling the judge they completely screwed up any chance of having a fair, impartial review.

We petitioned the judge to have the firm or expert witness works for do a forensic interview also, saying that if he said yes, we could literally have it done the same day.

He did not grant the motion, under the guise of "it would be too stressful for the child", which was the angle CYS was feeding him.

His Guardian Ad Litem is clearly on the side of CYS (he actually rolled his eyes during out expert's testimony), and the judge doesn't seem to be interested in finding out the truth.

This is another reason my lawyer has advised me appeals would be largely fruitless. And frankly, on top of the mental, emotional, and financial strain of constantly fighting like this, I don't know if it would be best for the children for me to uproot them again from their grandparents (who they've lived with for the last year) in a few years' time.

Their grandparents may hate me and want the kids to have nothing to do with me, but they seem, on the surface anyway, to be taking care of the kids. Better than a foster home, I suppose.

BTW... Police recently asked the reunification team if I would release info during our sessions to them. I refused to sign as I know the police are only there to hurt you, never to help you. So this is on their radar, but they also seem to think I've done something (likely based on what CYS/grandparents has probably told them).

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:57 am

Don't write off the police... they don't have a financial incentive to lie and fabricate evidence. In our case, having a police investigation and officer affirm that there was NO abuse/neglect was a huge help. They both follow the same laws so to have the police say you're innocent puts them in a position to defend their assertions. Given the direction you seem to be heading/leaning, I think a police investigation could NOT hurt. If nothing else, then when your daughter ages out and comes back to you (and she will unless grandparents COMPLETELY brainwash her) then you can at least point to the police reports that prove your innocence. No, they won't guarantee that CPS will "do the right thing" but they will help in a lot of ways.

Also.... I'm really, seriously concerned when CPS does *NOT* welcome/initiate a police report. If you did what they are accusing you of, then why wouldn't they want you charged criminally and labeled as a sex offender? It would be an obligation to protect the rest of society, right? Why don't they do this? Because they're lying... they don't want the police investigating and proving them wrong. We see this a lot when kids are in foster homes and are sexually abused... CPS response is usually to move the kids, but NOT call police. Why? Why are they protecting foster parents & foster siblings who sexually abuse? To cover their own a$$es.

Don't let them get away with it.
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:44 pm

Elijay, I hope you don't mind me saying this... but I strongly disagree.

I've spoken to a LOT of people and this is the basic fact...

The police are ONLY there to hurt you, never to help you.

Obviously, in your case, this wasn't true. And I'm really happy about that.

But in most cases, detectives (not patrol cops) will only try to get dirt on you to use to press charges, which DAs will do because they get elected and heaven forbid they are soft on crime.

They don't care about right or wrong... they care about themselves and "winning".

First rule of the law... NEVER talk to police unless you are trying to press charges toward someone else.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby theoaks » Mon May 06, 2013 11:41 am

I hate to be this person, but after it happened during my fathers divorce....

Is there any chance the paternal grandparents could have paid people off? Any way to prove it even?
It was admitted to by the therapist in my families case after my ex-step-mother passed away.

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Eljay
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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby Eljay » Mon May 06, 2013 3:43 pm

I_Hate_CPS wrote:Elijay, I hope you don't mind me saying this... but I strongly disagree.

.....

First rule of the law... NEVER talk to police unless you are trying to press charges toward someone else.



Everyone is entitled to their opinion. :)

What a shame that your experience with police is so negative.
Advice & opinions provided are no substitute for genuine legal assistance. Laws & rules vary by state/jurisdiction so do your homework and get
an education in CPS laws, rules & practices so that you can FIGHT for your children's rights. I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby I_Hate_CPS » Tue May 07, 2013 7:29 pm

theoaks, possible? Absolutely. Though frankly I think their lies and BS made it unnecessary.

Can I prove it? I don't see how, considering I'm not even allowed to see photos of my kids right now.

Elijay, some more background on police...

My lawyer had another client in a similar situation who spoke to the police. They ended up twisting words against him and he went to prison for a couple of years for abuse. While my lawyer represents criminals sometimes, he was 100% positive this guy wasn't one of them.

A slight update on the case, BTW...

The reunification team have said since I won't "take responsibility for what happened" (ie. confess to something I never did and serve prison time), they're recommending to the judge next month during my six-monthly hearing that reunification be ended. Obviously if that happens, no kids (but I know by now I'm not getting them back anyway).

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby monkette31 » Tue May 07, 2013 8:01 pm

I was looking at a Pennsylvania TPR appellate case here: http://tinyurl.com/penn-tpr

This is the appellate court telling you exactly what they look for in an appeal. I think you would have to find a place in your case or make a point in your case that has to do with 1-Abuse of Discretion 2-An Error of Law 3-Insufficient evidentiary support. Their standard of proof is by "clear and convincing" evidence, which you may want to challenge now by submitting your own evidence by way of a Statement of Facts Document herehttp://fightcps.com/2010/12/22/how-to-write-a-declaration-of-facts-to-submit-to-the-court/.

Appellate review of cases involving termination of parental rights [is] subject to the following principles:

[O]ur scope of review is broad and comprehensive, but our standard of review is narrow. We consider all the evidence, along with the legal conclusions and factual findings of the trial court. We reverse only if we find an abuse of discretion, an error of law, or insufficient evidentiary support. With respect to evidentiary support, we determine only whether the trial court's findings are supported by competent evidence. We accord the hearing judge's decision the same deference that we would give to a jury verdict.
In re C.P., 901 A.2d 516, 520 (Pa. Super. 2006) (citing In re C.M.S., 884 A.2d 1284, 1286 (Pa. Super. 2005), appeal denied, 587 Pa. 705, 897 A.2d 1183 (2006)). Further,
[i]n a proceeding to involuntarily terminate parental rights, the burden of proof is upon the party seeking termination to establish by "clear and convincing" evidence the existence of grounds for doing so. The standard of "clear and convincing" evidence is defined as testimony that is so clear, direct, weighty, and convincing as to enable the trier of fact to come to a clear conviction, without hesitance, of the truth of the precise facts in issue.
In re A.L.D., [797 A.2d 326, 336 (Pa. Super. 2002)] (quoting In re Adoption of Atencio, 539 Pa. 161, 166, 650 A.2d 1064, 1066 (1994)).
In re R.M.G., 997 A.2d 339, 347 (Pa. Super. 2010).

Moreover, termination of parental rights is controlled by Section 2511 of the Adoption Act, which requires a bifurcated analysis.

Our case law has made clear that under Section 2511, the court must engage in a bifurcated process prior to terminating parental rights. Initially, the focus is on the conduct of the parent. The party seeking termination must prove by clear and convincing evidence that the parent's conduct satisfies the statutory grounds for termination delineated in Section 2511(a). Only if the court determines that the parent's conduct warrants termination of his or her parental rights does the court engage in the second part of the analysis pursuant to Section 2511(b): determination of the needs and welfare of the child under the standard of best interests of the child. One major aspect of the needs and welfare analysis concerns the nature and status of the emotional bond between parent and child, with close attention paid to the effect on the child of permanently severing any such bond.
In re L.M., 923 A.2d 505, 511 (Pa. Super. 2007) (citing 23 Pa.C.S. § 2511).
I'm not a lawyer but will try and help you any way i can. My postings may seem harsh but they all stem from personal experience with DCFS. I am not a victim and take responsibility for my part in my life, but I will always help ANYONE learn about the corrupt sick system.

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Re: Unfair "founded" ruling, likely lose kids, please help!

Postby nodramamama2k » Wed May 08, 2013 12:23 pm

For your kids best interest, you need to fight as hard as you can for them. Don't ever lose hope. You may be apart from them now, but someday they will be able to come back to you and they need to know you fought as hard as you could. It's so easy to fall into despair, but your kids are the light at the end of the tunnel.

Do everything you can to get in front of an appellate court. This will mean a new judge who is not connected to your case.

If you can't afford an attorney, call around and look online to see if any will do pro bono work. It may be a long shot, but I know in my state, lawyers are supposed to do 50 hours of pro bono work a year. So you never know, someone may take pity on you. If they offer free consultations, use them to get info, they may also be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck!!!


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