Question For The loving Agents Of The State

[DontBiteMyNose]

My question is for the loving CPS agents that frequent this board. How many times have you investigated so-called parentification of children when they just happen to be exceptionally bright?

[Dan Sullivan]

My question is for the loving CPS agents that frequent this board. How many times have you investigated so-called parentification of children when they just happen to be exceptionally bright?

Is parentification a legitimate allegation of maltreatment?

And how would CPS know it was simply an exceptionally bright child unless they investigated?

[gideonmacleish]

The term "parentification" is, in and of itself, GARBAGE. I DEFY you to find it in any legal definition of abuse or neglect. It is yet another example of how CPS is trying to widen the net to ensnare more parents.

Frankly, I had not even seen or heard the word until your post, dontbitemynose...and, even though I had some idea what it meant, I had to look it up...and I've never been accused of being a dummy. I am outraged that such a word even exists, as it is evidence of our push towards a socialist state that we would see suspicion of such as justification for initiating an investigation.

Our responsibilities as parents include preparing our children to face the real world. This means teaching them budgeting skills, assigning responsibilities, giving chores, etc...all of which could fall under the extremely ambiguous term "parentification".

[DontBiteMyNose]

I agree...and don't believe it's real, either.

I DEFY you to find it in any legal definition of abuse or neglect.

Irrelevant to CPS.

----

I was just wondering if any loving State heros have investigated such nonsense. specifically and believe it's abuse, although they're bright according to the psychologists they're ordered to go to (See $ Kickback).

[Dan Sullivan]

The term "parentification" is, in and of itself, GARBAGE. I DEFY you to find it in any legal definition of abuse or neglect. It is yet another example of how CPS is trying to widen the net to ensnare more parents.

The parentification I'm familiar with is when a parent is so incapable for caring for their children that the children do the caring for the parent.

Best, Dan

[DontBiteMyNose]

Not necessarily. The term is now expanded to having your children do chores, example: cleaning, helping change diapers, picking up things, sitting, etc. And then an anonymous report.

Loving Agent: Johnny, do your parents make you work all day and night?
Johnny: Yes, they make me do so much! I have to pick up after myself and put toys away that I play with on the floor!
Loving Agent: Thank you, Little Johnny:


REPORT:

According to the evidence, it is stated that Little Johnny is in a perpetual state of servitude; cleaning up after adults, although he's only 7. Little Johnny is also subjected to scrubbing the floor on his knees at the parent's command. The child's room is also filthy and a mess and poses a safety risk. It is therefore, my belief, that the child stated herein is suffering from parentification and living in absolute squalor while the parent sleeps. Recommend immediate CPS custody.

[gideonmacleish]

The parentification I'm familiar with is when a parent is so incapable for caring for their children that the children do the caring for the parent.

Best, Dan

The sources I found were so broad as to include things like a regular chore list, occasional babysitting duties, etc under the rather broad umbrella. It is a VERY subjective term, and is subject to the rather biased perspective of the investigator. In other words, if you can't get 'em on anything else, you can probably get 'em on parentification.

S'OK. I've learned my lesson, at least. They'll have to go through my lawyers to get to me in the future.

[DontBiteMyNose]

Perhaps I've just shot ourselves in the feet. Some of the Lovers may not have known about "parentification" and now they do.

AGAIN, I ASK:

Have any of the Loving Agents investigated such?

[Ilovemygrandchild]

[quote="gideonmacleish"]The sources I found were so broad as to include things like a regular chore list, occasional babysitting duties, etc under the rather broad umbrella. It is a VERY subjective term, and is subject to the rather biased perspective of the investigator. In other words, if you can't get 'em on anything else, you can probably get 'em on parentification.[/quote]

When I read this thread last night, I too did not know exactly what it meant even though I had an idea. I did a search and printed information off a number of web sites and then read until 1:30 a.m. Nothing I read indicated that parentification had anything to do with a regular chore list or occasional babysitting duties. It mentioned children living in homes with severe neglect, alcoholism, drug abuse, physically or mentally ill parents and single parents that rely on children to take care of the younger siblings, the house, the cooking and even caring for the parent to such degree that the child is performing way beyond the expected emotional capacity for their age rather than being nurtured.

However, now that I have seen first hand the way my daughter's caseworker and the police lied and manipulated facts, I can also see how an over zealous CW could embellish the family circumstances and accuse a parent of parentification where it doesn't exist.

[Michael]

I have never seen the term prior to tonight. I do not know what it means but based on the defination I saw in some post any judge would throw any case based on this term out of court.

All removals must relate to one of the abuses or neglects as defined in Texas Family Code.

[gideonmacleish]

I do not know what it means but based on the defination I saw in some post any judge would throw any case based on this term out of court.

I have no doubt this is true in the state of Texas, Michael (and, in fact, your interpretation is consistent with my reading of the Policies and Procedures manuals), but laws vary from state to state on this issue. In Wisconsin, for instance, spanking your child (even with the hand) is heavily investigated by CPS.

The unfortunate problem with Texas is that we have a notorious history of following "trends" in other states, so if popular opinion decrees spanking to be abuse in many states, Texas will likely follow suit at some future date.

[MsHeather]

I had a case where there were 10 children removed due to neglect, substance abuse, and the mother's inability to control the children. The older children and the mother were gang involved. In this family system, one of the girls (age 10) was parentified and basically tried to take care of all of her siblings. Parentification in this case was a result of neglect. The reason for the the removal was not because of parentification-- that was simply one observable effect or sign of the neglect.

I think we all can agree that some children have to grow up faster than others due to their own life circumstances. One child may have a parent that is deceased at an early age or some situation where a child takes on greater responsibility in the family system. This in it of itself does not create parentification. It is life. Parentification is more extreme.. and again.. can be the result of severe neglect.

[daddyanddede]

let me say this in my family i am the oldest of 12 i learn to cook at the age of 5 my dad was working and my mother was sick to where she was unable to do it for us well being big brother it was up to me and you know it did not hurt me realy it help me for today i can cook any thing i want to i have a daughter that has a problem that i passed on to her (SHE NEEDS SALT) the only one that can or will help her is her older sister because she knows what is wrong with her papa and sister this word is one i have heard before but didnt know what it ment the things we did was because we wanted to not because we had to

[gideonmacleish]

I think we all can agree that some children have to grow up faster than others due to their own life circumstances. One child may have a parent that is deceased at an early age or some situation where a child takes on greater responsibility in the family system. This in it of itself does not create parentification. It is life. Parentification is more extreme.. and again.. can be the result of severe neglect.

And that, MsHeather, is a rational analysis of the term "parentification". But I am sure even you have encountered certain individuals who approach cases with an agenda, and broadly overuse terms such as this to harm innocent families. Even assuming your agency is fairly quick in weeding these individuals out of the system, it is usually after irreparable harm has been done.

"Parentification" is a fad term, and a dangerous one at that. Even at its best, it is a highly subjective analysis, and not one that most social workers are qualified to make.

[MsHeather]

Even at its best, it is a highly subjective analysis, and not one that most social workers are qualified to make.

I agree. But in the case I was referring to, a child psychologist was involved and the "analysis" actually came from her.

[Frustrated]

Often times, CPS Workers relying on the words of a Pschchologist CPS Doctor who is being paid by of course CPS, is not always reliable and a positive and sure answer. They (CPS Doctors) has been known to be wronged, and mistaken. That is why there is an over haul and over labelling on Children with ADHD< ADD, and such because the same CPS Doctors under pressure and under watchful eye of CPS Organization must make a diagnosis or they get the boot. I remember one independent Doctor say this best "The Diagnosis of the Child under examiniation for mere one hour is often a dangerous diagnosis that can be mistaken for something else". There you go.

Even the Association of these Doctors admit that the diagnosis on Children are over loaded and over diagnosed and these poor Children are put on medications for the wrong diagnosis? Would that be Medical Neglect on their part? I have heard one Doctor admit that he was wrong about the Child thinking he or she had ADHD< but in turn this child had Bipolar 1. The Diagnosises of Children can be dangerous to their health. That is why the Mental Health is so important to Children to ensure they get the quality of care they deserve, not abuse them medically for their own profits.

That is why CPS Workers rely on anything CPS Doctors tells them to do, but often they are wrong sometimes which would leave a Child being wronged and left out. I can only imagine how the Child feels alone in a Foster Care System. As you see, sometimes parentification when comes from the word of a CPS Doctor is not always reliable information, because it is one sided information. They never hear what the Child has to say, or what the Family had to say, or they did not gather the evidence properly. There is more to the story, ya know? That is why in these cases, it is best to hear both of the side of the Stories before the decision is dramatically decided on the fate of the Child's Life.

[Dan Sullivan]

Often times, CPS Workers relying on the words of a Pschchologist CPS Doctor who is being paid by of course CPS, is not always reliable and a positive and sure answer. They (CPS Doctors) has been known to be wronged, and mistaken.

Or the CPS CW makes a "diagnosis" and the CPS psych is expected to make that diagnosis their's.

How many people go to a psych eval and the CW has already supplied the psych a page or two of CPS' "findings " to be mentioned in the eval?

Dan

[Bob_Lynn]

Often times, CPS Workers relying on the words of a Pschchologist CPS Doctor who is being paid by of course CPS, is not always reliable and a positive and sure answer. They (CPS Doctors) has been known to be wronged, and mistaken.

There's more to it than that. You didn't expand on your point that they're being paid by CPS. That fact alone is a conflict of interest. But even worse, you'll find that in most cases, they will reject any findings by psychologists who are hired by those who are being investigated and claim that the reason is that these may be biased (and of course claim their own hired colluders are unbiased). Even worse is that psychiatry/psychology is a science based more on opinion than fact and even the medical profession has begun distancing itself from that profession because psychologist tend to label many of their findings as "diseases", when in fact, they are not. The industry also feels that most people are afflicted with some kind of mental "disease". Of course, if that were true, that would include most of those in the psychiatric industry as well.

[Frustrated]

Bob: Yes exactly. That's what's happening and it is happening nationwide. I mean even my own Doctor said "there is no such thing as real test? because it is based on opinion only."???

Basing their own opinions on Children is just as dangerous as drinking and driving at the same time.

[Dazeemay]

Many drs of the pyschiatric community have disassociated themselves from the APA. One of those drs. who has been very outspoken against them is Carol Tavris, a social physchologist.

I fear that the scientist-therapist gap is a done deal. There are too many economic and institutional supports for it, in spite of yearly exhortations by every president of the American Psychological Association for "unity" and "cooperation." That's why, in the late 1980s, a group of psychological scientists formed their own organization, the American Psychological Society, to represent their own scientific interests. Every year, the APA does something else to rile its scientific members while placating its therapist members -- like supporting prescription-writing privileges for Ph.D. psychologists and approving continuing-education programs for unvalidated methods or tests -- and so, every year, more psychological scientists leave the APA for the APS.

The scientific illiteracy of psychotherapists has torn up families, sent innocent defendants to prison, cost people their jobs and custody of their children, and promoted worthless, even harmful, therapies. A public unable to critically assess psychotherapists' claims and methods for scientific credibility will be vulnerable to whatever hysterical epidemic comes along next. And in our psychologically oriented culture, there will be many nexts. Some will be benign; some will merely cost money; and some will cost lives.

Carol Tavris, a social psychologist, is on the board of the Council for Scientific Clinical Psychology and Psychiatry, a consulting editor of The Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice, and a member of the editorial board of Psychological Science in the Public Interest.

[good dad]

Dazee... That would be an excellent piece to read in court to dispute the findings of a psych eval....

[Dazeemay]

Exactly.

I have quoted this woman many times on the board hoping that people will do this. It is very informative. Forgot to give the link.

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i25/25b00701.htm

Like the new avatar

[Ilovemygrandchild]

[i]Even the Association of these Doctors admit that the diagnosis on Children are over loaded and over diagnosed and these poor Children are put on medications for the wrong diagnosis? Would that be Medical Neglect on their part? I have heard one Doctor admit that he was wrong about the Child thinking he or she had ADHD< but in turn this child had Bipolar 1. The Diagnosises of Children can be dangerous to their health. [/i]

This happens on a regular basis even when CPS isn't involved. I am involved in a couple of on-line support groups for children with ADHD, bipolar, RAD, PTSD etc. I would say that 95% of these kids first receive a diagnosis of ADHD and/or depression or anxiety. Most are put on stimulant and/or antidepressant medications. Some may do o.k. at first and then after a period of time begin suffering the adverse reactions of say, bipolars on these meds and many began suffering these adverse reactions immediately. It isn't a pretty picture when this happens. It takes an average of 10 years between the onset of symptoms of bipolar and diagnosis. Meanwhile our children are suffering. I'll say it again, no school official, CPS worker, pediatrician, GP or psychologist should make a diagnosis such as this. All diagnosis should be multidisciplined and done at a facility where many professionals can evaluate and put their heads together in order to diagnose or rule out the existance of neurological or psychiatric disorders.

[Ilovemygrandchild]

Dazeemay, Thank you for the article. It was very good and supported much of what I have believed for a while. I've printed it for my file. Thank you again.

[Dazeemay]

All diagnosis should be multidisciplined and done at a facility where many professionals can evaluate and put their heads together in order to diagnose or rule out the existance of neurological or psychiatric disorders.

I agree with what you are saying, but according to the APS group it should be done more scientifically. That is why this group is upset about when it comes to APA. APA is just giving them a license to do anything and so one is not even protected in a multidisciplined group I feel because that group should have an APS dr in it's midst.

I hope you begin to study this group more and include their findings on your online groups.