New York - Question

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tonymoo
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New York - Question

Postby tonymoo » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:09 pm

Here's my situation:
Mid November, we get a call from CPS that someone phoned in an allegation of emotional abuse with respect to our 16 year old. Turns out it was one of her friends and leaving out the long story, there is no substance to it.

Having enough money and a sense of paranoia about the gov, I meet with 4 lawyers and hire the one I like best. After some discussion with the lawyer, we all agree that it would be best to go along with what CPS wants once in terms of coming to our home, interviewing all the kids, and getting medical records although the lawyer says if we were to fight there would be almost no way they would be able to get the stuff. I tell the CPS worker that we've retained an attorney (to which she of course seems surprised) but that we'll agree to what she wants. She comes over checks we have food and beds, asks us to sign medical releases (which we do), and asks if she can talk to the kids alone. We say yes. She takes them into another room in sight and hearing of us, basically asks them if we beat them (as a group) and finishes in under two minutes.

She says it seems stupid and will be unfounded unless there is something in the med records (which we know there isn't).

That was late November. We've heard nothing since. Our lawyer who sent them notice of representation has heard nothing.

What do we do?

Dan Sullivan
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Re: New York - Question

Postby Dan Sullivan » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:16 pm

tonymoo wrote:Here's my situation:
Mid November, we get a call from CPS that someone phoned in an allegation of emotional abuse with respect to our 16 year old. Turns out it was one of her friends and leaving out the long story, there is no substance to it.

Having enough money and a sense of paranoia about the gov, I meet with 4 lawyers and hire the one I like best. After some discussion with the lawyer, we all agree that it would be best to go along with what CPS wants once in terms of coming to our home, interviewing all the kids, and getting medical records although the lawyer says if we were to fight there would be almost no way they would be able to get the stuff. I tell the CPS worker that we've retained an attorney (to which she of course seems surprised) but that we'll agree to what she wants. She comes over checks we have food and beds, asks us to sign medical releases (which we do), and asks if she can talk to the kids alone. We say yes. She takes them into another room in sight and hearing of us, basically asks them if we beat them (as a group) and finishes in under two minutes.

She says it seems stupid and will be unfounded unless there is something in the med records (which we know there isn't).

That was late November. We've heard nothing since. Our lawyer who sent them notice of representation has heard nothing.

What do we do?


What county are you in?

It sounds like you're being investigated for physical abuse.

CPS does lie about the allegations.

Have you received any paperwork from CPS?

In order to prove emotional neglect CPS has to have your children evaluated by a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist... I know for a fact they never do this because it's too expensive and rarely will the eval determine real emotional neglect.

Best, Dan from Long Island

Bob_Lynn
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Postby Bob_Lynn » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:24 pm

(my opinion only and not legal advice)

Your lawyer's advice was effectively to waive your 4th Amendment protection rights, which was dangerous advice. Signing anything was also a terrible mistake and by doing that, you further waived your legal rights.

I'll bet I can get 90 out of 100 lawyers who would advise the same as what you were advised, it's unbelievable!

tonymoo
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Postby tonymoo » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:24 pm

Suffolk county.

Our daughter told one of her friends she was afraid to go home with her report card because her parents would kill her and the friend called CPS. Emotion allegation because she shouldn't be so afraid not because anyone seems to really think she was physically afraid. CPS worker actually joked with our daughter that she should be afraid to bring home that report card - it was all wet (i.e., below "C" level).

The initial letter said emotional abuse.

It's been more than 100 days, when should something happen and should I do something?

tonymoo
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Postby tonymoo » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:30 pm

Bob_Lynn wrote:(my opinion only and not legal advice)

Your lawyer's advice was effectively to waive your 4th Amendment protection rights, which was dangerous advice. Signing anything was also a terrible mistake and by doing that, you further waived your legal rights.

I'll bet I can get 90 out of 100 lawyers who would advise the same as what you were advised, it's unbelievable!


It wasn't a quick decision. We actually had a 2 hour discussion with the main lawyer, the associate assigned to us, my wife, and I. We went through in depth the pros and cons of both paths and he said that although he almost never advises anyone to cooperate, in our case he thought it might be a good idea to cooperate once and see if it could all go away. He said if we wanted to he'd be more than happy for us to say no to everything and make them work for it. He also said if anything at all about the meeting (fishing expeditions, even just a bad feeling) made us uncomfortable we should end it and tell CPS that everthing else needs to go through our attorney.

Bob_Lynn
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Postby Bob_Lynn » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:45 pm

While I can understand that you felt it was best to follow your attorney's advice and choose another path, I would only agree with his other choice, to say no to everything and to cite your constitutional rights as your reason for saying no.

In my opinion, there is only one choice, no.

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DontBiteMyNose
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Postby DontBiteMyNose » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:01 pm

Again, I agree with Bob 100%.

hls94137
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Postby hls94137 » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:35 pm

Its really sad that one must give up their rights to make cps happy. I have to have faith that in the end of all this since i did hold up to my rights that it was the best thing to do. I believe that in my case and many others my children were removed because i wouldnt let them in to tear through my home (search it for the safety of my children as they say) i wouldnt sign their safety plan (the things on it were all a given for a parent that loves their child) and I was not willing to meet with her at any given moment (i wanted an appointment). However i dont think that it would have ended even had i done these things because in so many cases those things are just a trap, one in which the end is the same. As a person though i feel good that i didnt allow them to walk on me and that i stood up for what i believe in. I believe that i am not a bad mom, that my children were safe, and that i would do whatever needed done for well-being of my children and myself.

tonymoo
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Postby tonymoo » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:09 pm

Thanks to everyone who replied. Just one clarification on terminology. Just because we chose to cooperate doesn't mean we gave up our rights - we chose not to exercise them.

About the only thing I'm annoyed at at this point is the CPS policy of talking to all the kids and checking on all the kids in the event of an allegation. That's intrusive and leaves a person no choice but to put up with the intrusion or to become adversarial. But that is a policy not the individual CPS worker's decision.

Had we had even the smallest thing to hide, or had the case worker been anything but pleasant, or had my kids been frightened of talking to her, or had I gotten a bad feeling or felt I stood to gain from doing so, of course I would have exercised my rights and made her work for everything.

Our thinking was to try to stop her from becoming invested in terms of either time or effort in our case. She probably spent less than an hour on our case total: 10 minutes with us, 15 minutes requesting records, and maybe 30 minutes reviewing them and writing the stuff up. Our opinion was that it would be a lot easier to walk away from that than if she had invested days and had to get CPS attorneys involved and write up why she was unable to check off certain items.

We'll see if it works out for us.

One thing puzzles me though. I've read/heard several time that once you let CPS in once, you can't stop them in the future. Can someone explain why that is to me? I thought that was only vampires.

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:21 pm

First, the report never should have been accepted for investigation.

A 16 year old girl was afraid to bring a poor report card home.

That was the allegation.

No abuse, no neglect.

None of the four attnies the family spoke to recognized that.

Second, because there was no evidence of anything to be concerned about in the home the parents agreed to a CPS home visit.

The CW checked for food, beds and spoke with all the kids collectlively for two minutes.

Over and done.

Since last November the family hasn't heard anything from CPS.

The only question is, do they call the CW for a copy of the determination... or do they wait.

Dan Sullivan
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Re: New York - Question

Postby Dan Sullivan » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:28 pm

tonymoo wrote: Our lawyer who sent them notice of representation has heard nothing.

What do we do?


AH!

A clue!

I'll bet your attny received the notice months ago and doesn't know it.

You can send me half of what the attny didn't use of your retainer.

Best, Dan

Bob_Lynn
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Postby Bob_Lynn » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:22 pm

tonymoo wrote:Just because we chose to cooperate doesn't mean we gave up our rights - we chose not to exercise them.


You're playing with semantics, once you let government agents into your home (or you choose not to exercise your rights as you worded it) you waive your 4th Amendment rights.

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Frustrated
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Postby Frustrated » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:00 am

Tonymoo:

Your case sounds almost exactly as mine. Me and my hubby's allegations were Emotional Abuse.

IT took them 114 days.

I signed their Medical Release form for them to see my Doctor's reports and such.

They interviewed my Kids on the porch last August and Sept. I was there beside them and the other visit with my Son was through the Window of my Living room where my son was outside with her on the porch.

They had a meeting with me, asking me questions. I keep it short and answered her Questions.
She claimed it was serious allegations.

They concluded they will keep my Case OPEN, after 114 days WITH A SERVICE PLAN. I had to do their Service Plan which is Counselling. They never carried the Service Plan and never did anything for 6 months. I never saw them for 6 months during the Service Plan.

They needed Evidence with this Service Plan.

They emailed me saying they wanted another Service Plan on us for ANOTHER Six Months! That is cos they don't have the Evidence.

I went for Counselling elsehwere because they wasted our time, in fact they sat there and did nothing about the Service Plan.

All because my Son refused to stop playing the Video Games and told him to go outside instead of playing Video Games all day long.

That was the Emotional Harm.

:roll:

Took us almost 7 months already. Case started August 3rd, of last year.

It is still on going and still remain to be OPEN regardless.
It is easy to steal from poor people. But don't do it. And don't take advantage of those poor people in court. The Lord is on their side. He supports them and he will take things away from any person that takes from them.~ Proverbs 22:22

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Frustrated
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Postby Frustrated » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:07 am

Tonymoo:

So they might keep your Case OPEN for a while, until they are sure there is no Emotional Harm, etc...etc...

They "might" introduce a Saftey Plan or Service Plan on you and your Daughter, and go for Counselling.

Don't sign the Service Plan, because I have suffered by waiting for something to move and yet they called asking for ANOTHER Service Plan for ANOTHER 6 months of intrusion.

You are looking for up to a Year of intrusions.

Otherwise, they would have written a Letter saying unfounded and closed BY NOW.

I am still waiting.....it is a question in the air and I don't know what they are doing. But I know they are sneaky snakes so please be prepared. I would suggest you go find a PRIVATE Counsellor from ANOTHER Agency, so they cannot shove it down your Throat with a Service Plan. I would suggest you to remain guarded, they are still watching. Even at School, they are watching your Daughter still to this day.

It is pure harrassement on their part, and it is an ugly intrusion for the rest of your Lives, and our Lives and everybody's lives.

Sad but true. Anyone that has a Case with CPS, will be subjected to another case in the Future. I have been through 5 cases with them already and it is still not ending. :roll: They will stop once your Child turns 16 or 18 or 21, depending on Circumstances. That is how long they will be in your Lives. UNTIL 18! Everyone is under surviellance, almost forever. Because when it comes to Grandchildren in the Future, the Daughter and Sons will be subjected to the same harrassement as we did because our Names ARE In their Database forever! All the names are connected to approval to their Fundings. :roll:
It is easy to steal from poor people. But don't do it. And don't take advantage of those poor people in court. The Lord is on their side. He supports them and he will take things away from any person that takes from them.~ Proverbs 22:22

momof3
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Postby momof3 » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:13 pm

Good luck to you tonymoo.

I cant count the number of times as a teenager I said "my moms gonna kill me". Just an expression of a child that knows they've messed up.

Times have changed, kids are brainwashed in school to report the most stupid stuff.

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:48 am

momof3 wrote:Good luck to you tonymoo.

I cant count the number of times as a teenager I said "my moms gonna kill me". Just an expression of a child that knows they've messed up.

Times have changed, kids are brainwashed in school to report the most stupid stuff.


The report was made by a friend of Tony's 16 y o daughter.

CPS should never have accepted (screened in) the report for investigation... it should have been "screened out."

The allegation was the girl was afraid to bring home a poor report card.

Just goes to show how desperate CPS is for things to investigate.

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Frustrated
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Postby Frustrated » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:00 pm

YUP! CPS goes to School and "train" the Children to say and report ridiculous things, even teachers, mandated reporters, and even emergency doctors to report even the slightest mark or whatever.

When it used to be back then, the Children used to be scared to have the report card home, or have fears, but not today, they would see fears as an Emotional Abuse. That is how bad and desperate they are, to make a case so they can make money to be made off of these poor Children. If this is like back then, the cases would be swarming like bees (in the thousands).

I remember back then, in the olden days, the Grandma used to have the broom out to threaten the girl not to bring the boy in the house because he was trying to have sex with the grand daughter. But today, you cannot do this stuff anymore, Most Teenagers out there are having SEX and getting pregnant every day. There is nothing we can do about it.

Pity, eh? Sad? yup. I wished some one would be out there and protect these poor girls from getting pregnant. Sometimes a Fear tactic works on Children so they can smarten up and keep their Lives straight. It is a teaching tool back in the olden days. All of these Children grew up and hold a responsible career jobs. All successful. Today? pfffth, no one is holding a job, most of them are dead end jobs. Things are changing for the worse because CPS are telling the Children to get away with it all. No rules, no morals, no standards, just like that, and goes out in the window. Gone just like that. Their Future are ruined indeed all because of CPS.
It is easy to steal from poor people. But don't do it. And don't take advantage of those poor people in court. The Lord is on their side. He supports them and he will take things away from any person that takes from them.~ Proverbs 22:22

kellybea
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Postby kellybea » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:35 pm

where do you live...im in nassau and in need of an attorney...suggestions?

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:28 pm

kellybea wrote:where do you live...im in nassau and in need of an attorney...suggestions?


Check your personal messages.

Best, Dan

tonymoo
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Postby tonymoo » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:18 am

Just to conclude, after 150 days, we got the "unfounded" letters.

Thanks to those, especially Dan, who gave advice.

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:53 am

tonymoo wrote:Just to conclude, after 150 days, we got the "unfounded" letters.

Thanks to those, especially Dan, who gave advice.


My pleasure.

Best, Dan Sullivan

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DontBiteMyNose
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Postby DontBiteMyNose » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:01 pm

I'm glad it's closed for you. It took them like 5 months to send me a letter saying it's unfounded and closed and additional month for me to get that piece of paper to erase our names from the database. I wonder if they actually took our information out.
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Greegor
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Postby Greegor » Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:37 pm

Can anybody confirm that tonymoo is not a fake persona?
What advice, exactly, is tonymoo thanking Dan for?

Yes, Dan was right that the report should have
been screened out, but Dan knows they break
rules like this all the time.

Dan did comment about how four attorneys failed
to recognize that it shoulda been screened out!

If a parent was confronted with this lame sort of
report, and immediately asked
"Why wasn't that screened out?" it would be
interesting to see if the worker did or will lie
about the nature of the report (they do) and
when such an informed question comes up
if the caseworker doesn't see the family as
hostile to the agency.

Nobody should have to consult and pay an attorney
to ask "Why wasn't that screened out?".

Nobody should stay with an attorney who
doesn't ask that question but urges submission
to the agency. That attorney should be disbarred!

The changes made by AZ's new law requiring
the caseworker to notify the family that they
are not required to let them into their home,
not required to cooperate, nature of report, etc.
Those improvements would have KILLED this
garbage case before the invasion of the home.

Question: Can a Juvenile legally consent to
a search of their parents home?

Isn't this caseworker guilty of illegal search
because the consent came from a juvenile
not old enough to legally consent to anything?

tonymoo wrote:Just to conclude, after 150 days, we got the "unfounded" letters.

Thanks to those, especially Dan, who gave advice.


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