CPS Backs Down!

[Bob_Lynn]

My daughter was visiting a friend the other day when there was a knock at the door. I don't quite know the exact story but both my daughter and her friend thought it was a CPS caseworker. My daughter told her friend not to let the caseworker in citing her 4th Amendment rights. The friend said she had nothing to hide.

She opened the door and the caseworker announced herself and claimed there was a phone call about deplorable conditions and drug usage and she had to investigate.

The friend let her in despite my daughter's warnings. The caseworker walked in, said the place was in decent condition and although there were some toys strewn around, it was expected as there were children in the house.

After speaking with the friend and my daughter, my daughter told the caseworker she had an outstanding federal suit against the local CPS. The caseworker said she had heard about it. She then told the friend she had to take a urine drug test as a final part of her investigation. The friend told the caseworker that she would take the drug test under one condition, that the caseworker show her a warrant. The caseworker said she didn't have one and could not get one based on a an anonymous telephone call. She then said ok and that there is nothing further she could do and would close the case.

A letter came in the mail a few days later stating the case was closed.

I truly believe that our lawsuit had a profound effect on how our local CPS handles themselves as I have heard that they are not quite the goons they used to be. I also feel that in this particular case, they did not want any kind of confrontation anyway because of the pending litigation.

SUING WORKS! (but not always)

[dasuberding]

RIGHT ON! This is the effect we are looking for and I do believe suing them in federal court makes a difference. Make them work. Make them paranoid. Make them learn the laws. Make them think their jobs are on the line. Their is nothing more contemtable than a state employee.

[Dan Sullivan]

The fact is CPS couldn't get a warrant for a drug test based on an anonymous report whether there was a law suit pending or not.

Are you claiming that CPS could have gotten a warrant but chose not to because your daughter mentioned she was suing CPS?

[Bob_Lynn]

Are you claiming that CPS could have gotten a warrant but chose not to because your daughter mentioned she was suing CPS?

From where in my post do you come up with this nonsense?

[Dan Sullivan]

Are you claiming that CPS could have gotten a warrant but chose not to because your daughter mentioned she was suing CPS?

From where in my post do you come up with this nonsense?

It isn't nonsense.

I asked the question, Bob, because you wrote "I also feel that in this particular case, they did not want any kind of confrontation anyway because of the pending litigation."

According to your story the only issue left was getting the woman to take a drug test.

If that's not the confrontation CPS didn't want because of the pending litigation, what was?

[Bob_Lynn]

You either choose to twist because that's your M.O. when it comes to my posts or you have a real problem with reading comprehension, or both.

In the past, CPS would not have closed the case, especially not from practically the first day they investigated and would have probably made a major issue as they used to do in virtually any investigation. They rarely try to get a warrant because they rarely can get a warrant. But that "trivial" matter would not stop them.

The point I was making that you choose to have a difficult time comprehending is exactly the title of this thread, CPS BACKED DOWN in record time and I believe it was because of our lawsuit. The word "warrant" does not appear in the definition of the word "confrontation", look it up www.dictionary.com

And finally, virtually the same thing happened with Bruce Bayer's daughter a few months back when CPS barged into her home without a warrant based on an anonymous tip (same issue, drugs & deplorable conditions) and they backed off then too when they realized she was Bruce's daughter and he has a pending federal lawsuit as well.

You think you get the picture now?

[Dan Sullivan]

You think you get the picture now?

I think I get what YOU think the picture is.

[Frustrated]

I can't believe she asked the Friend to take a Drug Test, that would be a violation of her Privacy Rights. What is the World coming to? NOW they are going to many places to investigate, beside the home?

I was told by the Lawyer they cannot go to the places where you take vacations at, because it was not the same address as shown for the Home. It must have the same addresss shown on the Report. He even mentions that the Tents, would not be the subject of the investigation? I said why not? They can search anywhere, and I was surprised that the Lawyer said, that the Tents are not the subject, but the Home is?

[Bob_Lynn]

I think you misunderstood. CPS was investigating my daughter's friend in her home, they were not investigating my daughter. My daughter was merely visiting her friend when this happened.

I feel that if my daughter had not been there at that time, her friend would have been in serious trouble of a CPS invasion. It was my daughter's presence (and advice to her friend) that prevented CPS from pursuing their typically illegal agenda.

[scarfyrre]

That makes it more clear, Bob. I have to agree with Dan that your original post, as it was written, indicated that they were saved because of the law suit, and not your daughter's smarts and knowledge of how the enemy works.

You and Dan both need to get the stick out of your behinds and stop being so damn sensitive with each other. Both give parents excellent advice, but between the petty bickering and smart-ass comments, all of that gets lost. I don't give a rat's ass if you don't like each other, but I'm damn sick of the pettiness. Bickering has run off more than one parent already, and the previous posts are a good indication of what is going on.

Yes, your post did infer that, but for both of you it could've been handled differently. Get over it already. Jeez.

[Bob_Lynn]

Well then, my apologies if my original post didn't come off clearly and caused a misunderstanding.

Anytime Dan wants to reply intelligently to any of my posts minus an unwarranted criticism, sarcastic comment or other negative/cynical implication, I will reply in kind. Unfortunately, I have yet to see it happen.

Note: I have no problem with criticism when appropriate (such as your post) but when all post in reply are wantonly critical, they are no longer appropriate.

[Dan Sullivan]

I have to agree with Dan that your original post, as it was written, indicated that they were saved because of the law suit, and not your daughter's smarts and knowledge of how the enemy works.

Actually the woman wasn't "saved" by anything Bob's daughter said or did.

It was simply because the CW couldn't get a warrant for a drug test because the report was anonymous.

In fact if the report wasn't anonymous I'd bet the investigation, at the point Bob's daughter mentioned her pending law suit, would have turned decidedly BAD for her friend.

Anyway, back to why I questioned Bob about his posts...

I never want to hear that someone threatened a law suit because they thought it would make CPS "back down" and then had a ton of bricks fall on them because CPS had an investigation to conduct... and they don't like being threatened.

"I also feel that in this particular case, they did not want any kind of confrontation anyway because of the pending litigation. SUING WORKS! (but not always)"

"RIGHT ON! This is the effect we are looking for and I do believe suing them in federal court makes a difference."

"CPS BACKED DOWN in record time and I believe it was because of our lawsuit."

"the same thing happened with Bruce Bayer's daughter a few months back when CPS barged into her home without a warrant based on an anonymous tip (same issue, drugs & deplorable conditions) and they backed off then too when they realized she was Bruce's daughter and he has a pending federal lawsuit as well."

People come to this NG for good advice on how to stop CPS from ruining their lives and the lives of their children... and they read stuff like that.

I couldn't in good conscience leave it alone.

Even in his attempt to "clarify" why CPS backed down Bob didn't tell the real reason (keep in mind the case only turned out the way it did because the report was anonymous).

Bob wrote "It was my daughter's presence (and advice to her friend) that prevented CPS from pursuing their typically illegal agenda."

Her presence and advice?

Bob's daughter told her friend not to let the CPS CW in and she let the CW in anyway.

Then Bob's daughter mentioned her pending federal lawsuit.

Then the CW asked for a drug test.

Then the friend asked for a warrant.

AND FINALLY the CW said she couldn't get a warrant because the report was anonymous.

Bob's daughter didn't advise her friend to ask for a warrant because she knew the CW couldn't get one.

It was shear luck the report turned out to be anonymous!

Do you think Bob would have posted the story if the friend asked for a warrant and the CW said, "Fine, I'll be back tomorrow?"

That's exactly what would have happened if the report wasn't anonymous!!!

Sometimes you're the windshield...

Those posts are dynamite to families and CPS holds the fuse.

Thank God the report was anonymous.

Dangerous, dangerous stuff.

[Frustrated]

LOL

I know you are trying to be funny, but what does Anyoymous have to do with getting a Warrant?

Most of the Hot Line Callers are Anoymous, and they STILL get the Warrant regardless from the Judge himself and they still enter the house with Police swarming in....

Are you saying if the Hot Line Callers was not Anoymous, then they can get a Warrant to do so?

It does not make sense. CPS can do pretty much anything they wanted to do. It is sheer luck just because they don't want to. (whew) probably because of the "pending lawsuit". I don't think it has something to do with a Warrant. They can STILL get a Warrant (if they feel like it, and if they wanted to) it does not matter if the person or the report was anoymous! The Name will not be released in Court. Ya know? They won't release the person's name in Court, and it will be "Sealed" by the Courts. But the Warrant will be named what they are looking for or looking for "to get" such as Drug Test...

It is Sheer Luck that they don't want to, and don't feel like it, cos of the pending lawsuit.

Not because of Anoymous versus Warrant. Nah, they can still get it tomorrow if they wanted to, but chose not to.

[ericb]

Give it a rest Dan,
It has become increasingly apparent that a good portion of the families on this board have become tired of your rhetoric and thinly masked CPS complicity. Your hostility is evident when anyone chooses to question you or your motives. Further, any warranted criticism of you or your responses is immediately met by an almost psychotic Cut and Paste, Cut and Paste, Cut and Paste, etc...You routinely fail to answer a question as it is posed to you. Rather, you attempt to deconscruct it to the point of blabbering nonsense.

Find a different hobby, already...

[Greegor]

Dan, Maybe you should post my family's letter
to the U.S. Congress and court pleading along
with your mockery and harassment?

That would really convince these families
under siege from CPS just how great an
advocate for Parents Rights you are!

I see your little charade hasn't held up
well even before I came along in here!

Dan posts good stuff about Parents Rights
once in awhile to try to maintain the charade
that he is for Parents.

He was kicked out of NY VOCAL and prevented
from entering CPSWATCH, where he went only
to harass the Illinois director of CPSWATCH.

Dan is a boll weevil trying to burrow his way
inside of Parents Rights groups to do harm
from the inside. His best buddies and allies
in the newsgroup ascps are all beneficiaries
of the current broken system and rabidly defend it.
Don't believe a reference from an internet
persona that can easily be faked.

I would expect that Dan's friends, the rabid
system sucks, are lurking here watching.

Dan once tried the old "where there's smoke
there's fire" rationale to imply that investigations
wouldn't happen so much without some merit.
But this was funny since he also claims to have
fended off 15 investigations 5 of which were
made into cases. He apparently didn't realize
how the smoke/fire axiom would say HE is guilty!
And even though he supposedly had five cases
proceed beyong initial stages totally without merit,
he still acts naive about the agency and court
willingness to blatantly do the wrong thing,
ignore exculpatory evidence and violate laws.

Beware the boll weevil and his cohorts.
Congratulations on spotting him without me.

Did he obtain anybody's private case information?

Did he ask questions about things he would
not need in order to help somebody?

Did he mock people for filing law suits?

One example that stands out is that Dan and
his buddies mocked me because we formally asked
for financial help for a storage locker.
They yucked it up for years about that, repeatedly,
as if it was our idea, even though I explained that
the idea came from an agency contractor.
They ignored that and proceeded to mock us for
suggesting that the agency should pay to store our
stuff.

As everybody in here should know that the
agency IS supposed to seriously consider options
like that before removing a child from their home.
Clearly they would rather spend over a Million
dollars on five years of contracting and legal battles
than pay out a few hundred dollars to eliminate
a household clutter problem.
I reiterate that the idea that they should pay
for a storage locker was NOT our idea but it
came from an agency CONTRACTOR.

[Dan Sullivan]

Give it a rest Dan,
It has become increasingly apparent that a good portion of the families on this board have become tired of your rhetoric and thinly masked CPS complicity.

What portion would that be?

And complicity in what?

I think I asked you that before and you failed to answer.

Your hostility is evident when anyone chooses to question you or your motives.

What hostility?

Further, any warranted criticism of you or your responses is immediately met by an almost psychotic Cut and Paste, Cut and Paste, Cut and Paste, etc...

Psychotic?

Are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

You know why cut and paste is on computer?

So people can cut and paste.

And I respond to any criticism warranted or not.

You routinely fail to answer a question as it is posed to you.

What would you like to know?

Rather, you attempt to deconscruct it to the point of blabbering nonsense.

That's your opinion.

Find a different hobby, already...

Why? This has never been a hobby for me.

[ericb]

I rest my case...

Greegor,

Welcome To This Board!!!!!

[Bob_Lynn]

Thanks Greegor, I've been trying to expose this phony balony since he first showed up in this forum. He is becoming increasingly obvious. Too many of us are well aware that this creep is exactly what someone first nicknamed him, CPS DAN!

He actually believes he can snow people who have already been through the system, what a jerk!

[Bob_Lynn]

Dan is right about one thing, it's not a hobby for him. He isn't posting here 24/7 for free.

[scarfyrre]

Back to the discussion at hand...

This warrant thing is a big grey area for most of us, I think, or perhaps just me, so might we clarify it?

A warrant is given by the court to the police with probable cause, correct? They have to have a damn good reason to ask a judge for a search warrant like witnesses to something illegal. They cannot just ask for a search warrant for giggles.

Ok, so in walks this CPS agent wanting me to pee in a cup. I tell them to go fetch a search warrant, and they say they can't because of an anonymous caller. In effect, that would be insuffcient evidence for CPS to go to the judge to issue a search warrant, correct?

But then we have then talking to our children, strip-searching them in some cases, without search warrants.

This makes me wonder if when the CPS agent waddled into my home to question me and my child, and I told her to go bite her own huge butt, if it would've ended there OR if the claim was made by a counselor/mandated reporter if that would've been enough for them to go to a judge.

Hrm. Am I just thinking out my bootie or do I have any of that right?

[Dan Sullivan]

Back to the discussion at hand...

This warrant thing is a big grey area for most of us, I think, or perhaps just me, so might we clarify it?

A warrant is given by the court to the police with probable cause, correct? They have to have a damn good reason to ask a judge for a search warrant like witnesses to something illegal. They cannot just ask for a search warrant for giggles.

Ok, so in walks this CPS agent wanting me to pee in a cup. I tell them to go fetch a search warrant, and they say they can't because of an anonymous caller. In effect, that would be insuffcient evidence for CPS to go to the judge to issue a search warrant, correct?

CPS can't get a warrant based on an allegation from an anonymous source.

But then we have then talking to our children, strip-searching them in some cases, without search warrants.

This makes me wonder if when the CPS agent waddled into my home to question me and my child, and I told her to go bite her own huge butt, if it would've ended there OR if the claim was made by a counselor/mandated reporter if that would've been enough for them to go to a judge.

Hrm. Am I just thinking out my bootie or do I have any of that right?

Get a copy of your CPS caserecord you'll see if the report was anonymous.

Best, Dan

[Bob_Lynn]

In most cases, caseworkers can't get a warrant. In Pennsylvania, there was a Superior Court opinion stating exactly that before juvenile courts may issue a warrant, the social worker "must file a verified petition alleging facts amounting to probable cause to believe that an act of child abuse or neglect has occurred and evidence relating to such abuse will be found in the home." The Superior Court correctly emphasized the Constitution's 4th Amendment protections. Of course, CPS in Pa. still violates that daily.

The problem comes with those who are ignorant of their rights. They often have no clue about the 4th Amendment and believe CPS has Gestapo-like powers. They allow these workers into their homes and give them carte-blanche to search, strip-search, interrogate, show medical records, sign everything and anything under threat, etc. When they allow that, caseworkers can easily claim that the person waived their 4th Amendment right by consenting to allow them entry into their home.

In the situation I cited, my daughter knew enough to explain to her friend quickly not to allow anything without a warrant. Prior to that, my daughter's friend was willing to allow the caseworker anything out of fear. She was already intimidated enough to allow the caseworker into her home despite her warnings, but stood up to her when asked for a urine drug test. I know the caseworker didn't pursue it because my daughter revealed that there was a pending federal suit. I'm certain the caseworker would have applied pressure and would not have closed the case so quickly otherwise.

[Frustrated]

Interesting! Interesting!

Why do you suppose that the CPS just went in the house and take pictures of your house and strip search your child?

With no warrant?

mmmm would that be a violation to the LAW?

Why are they not held accountable?

OH that makes me so mad thinking they can do whatever they want!

Are you saying, we must tell them to get a warrant?

What happened to most parents that they are not allowed to take a look at the warrant that the CPS just waved the paper around and let the Cops remove the child away from the house?

Interesting! So how do they get the warrant based on a Hot caller being Anoymous?

I don't get it. ARE you saying that most of the hot line callers who called in Anoymous and CPS STILL managed to get a Warrant to enter the house and remove a child without investigation and without questioning?

would that be a violation to the Civil Rights? The Law? WOW!

I bet you they violated over half a million CASES! That is given if they said they (couldn't get a warrant based on the anoymous?)

WOW! I cannot imagine what the Parents went through a so called Warrant through the Anoymous caller or report!

They ABUSED THE SYSTEM indeed!

Her words what she said, said it RIGHT THERE! GAVE US THE CLUE!! That leads us to demand them to get a Warrant! Because most of the hot line callers and reports are Anoymous!

But what happens if you already have 5 cases and can you say "Go get a Warrant?" AFTER the fact?

Or is that too late? I heard some one said that once you let them in, you are doomed and you must let them in for Years....

Is THAT TRUE?!

[sob900]

Interesting! Interesting!

Why do you suppose that the CPS just went in the house and take pictures of your house and strip search your child?

Fear tactics, people will do just about anything when they are afraid, especially when the big bad government gets involved.

With no warrant?

Most people are too afraid, or dont know about the warrant, so the system takes full advantage of it and bullies their way in.

mmmm would that be a violation to the LAW?

Yes, a gross violation.

Why are they not held accountable?

Cause most people dont have the courage, money, or know-how to stand up tp them.

OH that makes me so mad thinking they can do whatever they want!

Mee, too. Now I have the courage and know how to stand up to them, only need the money(file papers research, travel, ect.)

Are you saying, we must tell them to get a warrant?

DEMAND they get a warrant and the burdon of proof lies on them to prove you did something wrong.

What happened to most parents that they are not allowed to take a look at the warrant that the CPS just waved the paper around and let the Cops remove the child away from the house?

File an affidavit with the court stating as such(leave out all emotions, just the facts) they have to bebutt it and if they dont, it stands as truth on the record.

Interesting! So how do they get the warrant based on a Hot caller being Anoymous?

The caller is anonamous to you and I, but not to them.

I don't get it. ARE you saying that most of the hot line callers who called in Anoymous and CPS STILL managed to get a Warrant to enter the house and remove a child without investigation and without questioning?

would that be a violation to the Civil Rights? The Law? WOW!

Acctually it is a violation under "color of law"

I bet you they violated over half a million CASES! That is given if they said they (couldn't get a warrant based on the anoymous?)

I would bet a lot more than that!

WOW! I cannot imagine what the Parents went through a so called Warrant through the Anoymous caller or report!

They ABUSED THE SYSTEM indeed!

Her words what she said, said it RIGHT THERE! GAVE US THE CLUE!! That leads us to demand them to get a Warrant! Because most of the hot line callers and reports are Anoymous!

But what happens if you already have 5 cases and can you say "Go get a Warrant?" AFTER the fact?

File your paperwork, get your facts right, be honest with yourself, learn how the courts operate, do your homework and have some courage.

Or is that too late? I heard some one said that once you let them in, you are doomed and you must let them in for Years....

Is THAT TRUE?!

[Bob_Lynn]

I heard some one said that once you let them in, you are doomed and you must let them in for Years....

Is THAT TRUE?!

No it's not true. You waive your 4th Amendment rights once you let them in, assuming they didn't coerce you in any way to let them in. Once they leave and they return at a different time, you can bar them from entering your home a subsequent time without a warrant or court order, citing your 4th Amendment rights and you would have every right to do so if that's what you want to do.