What should i do?

[pamom2crew]

I forgot to mention this part of my meeting with the cw, lawyer, and me.
The new cw hasn't seen my house or kids..and she wants to be able to come by for a 1/2 hour to do that.
What should I do? Do I say ok, and let her? Or do I say "no", she can see the kids at my lawyers office? She said she needs to see the house too since she hasn't yet...but I told her that if this is so that she can just come here to try to find something like an outlet plug missing, and then use it against me, then I have a problem with that. But if it's so that she can understand the parts of the house that are being talked about as well as the door to my yard, then thats fine.
But, I've been putting a lot of thought into this, and I'm just not too sure. My lawyers think it's ok for her to come here, but I just don't want to take any chances, you know? But on the other hand, I don't want her to think I'm trying to hide anything either, because i'm not.
Any input?????

[DontBiteMyNose]

If it were I in this situation, I'd do the following:

Tell the lawyer I demand him/her to represent me. Tell the lawyer that I stand on my 4th Amendment and will never....I repeat, never let them see my children or my home. Next, I would tell the lawyer that CPS has zero authority and I will never cooperate. You're not hiding anything by exercizing your rights! You're an American, for godsakes. You, my friend, are not the enemy. They are.

Would they find anything? You bet. All they gotta do is run their finger on top of a door and find dust. Boom, "squalor" on their notebook.

I'm not sure why, but, this reminded me when my wife and I had a baby in the hospital. Supposedly, the goons are "on hand" to offer services to EVERYONE at this hospital. I ran them off with a nice and curtly, "Get the hell out of here", led them to the door and shut it....and that was it.

This is not legal advice and I'm not a lawyer.

[Frustrated]

AND they were at the School offering Services too as well. They were giving out Business Cards to the CHILDREN at the School to CALL THEM if there was something going on in THEIR HOUSE!

Imagine that?

"Oh by the way, if you don't like things being run in your house, rat out your own Parents, CALL ME!"

That is exactly what it is. "HOW To RAT OUT YOUR PARENTS IF YOU DON'T LIKE RULES IN YOUR HOUSE."

I have had heard Kids calling them saying that the Rules are too "strict" like they can't even go out of the house.

Oh, let them go out at 10 PM at night?! I DON'T THINK SO!

This is unreal. I just recieved a Business Card from the Kids that they brought home from School and it says "Call us if you need help." Help to get out of Rules? Kids will interpret that, Oh If I can get away with Rules, I might as well call them so I can get what I want.

Just like Monopoly Game, "Get out of Jail Card" It is "Get out of house card."

[pamom2crew]

....I repeat, never let them see my children or my home. Next, I would tell the lawyer that CPS has zero authority and I will never cooperate. You're not hiding anything by exercizing your rights!

The only problem with this is that my lawyer said they've seen this done before, and cps gets a court order to enter, which they can do being theyve made an indicated report. So, I'm just scared of them trying to take the kids if I fight them too hard. And that's a risk that I can't take, because my ex would get my daughter, and that could never happen.

[Frustrated]

....I repeat, never let them see my children or my home. Next, I would tell the lawyer that CPS has zero authority and I will never cooperate. You're not hiding anything by exercizing your rights!

The only problem with this is that my lawyer said they've seen this done before, and cps gets a court order to enter, which they can do being theyve made an indicated report. So, I'm just scared of them trying to take the kids if I fight them too hard. And that's a risk that I can't take, because my ex would get my daughter, and that could never happen.

They got a Court Order and entered then got an INDICIATED REPORT???

That does not wash with me. That is absurd.

But remember when they ask for Court Order, they must describe WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR and WHAT REASONS For entering your House. It will keep them binded by the court of Law. If they found nothing, then the Court Order would seem to be moot anyways. The COPS will be there to witness what CW is LOOKING FOR...and hence nothing? Seems to be a waste of their state funds and their time.

That is why Court Orders are better than having none and having their way into your Home? Why don't you have it outside or at their office? it is much better than an invasive "look" at your house? They will make it indicated no matter what, down to dirty dishes.

[pamom2crew]

They got a Court Order and entered then got an INDICIATED REPORT???

No, what I meant was that they have an indicated report on me...and the lawyer said they could get a court order for me to let them see the kids and my house.

[pamom2crew]

Why don't you have it outside or at their office? it is much better than an invasive "look" at your house? They will make it indicated no matter what, down to dirty dishes.

I tried, but she won't do it that way, she's telling me that according to cpsl that she has to see my kids in my home on a monthly basis because I have been "indicated of imminent risk".

[DontBiteMyNose]

Why don't you have it outside or at their office? it is much better than an invasive "look" at your house?

This is a bad idea. They're notorious for "lock-ins".

They will make it indicated no matter what, down to dirty dishes.

Indeed, thats true.

I tried, but she won't do it that way, she's telling me that according to cpsl that she has to see my kids in my home on a monthly basis because I have been "indicated of imminent risk".

If that were a fact, how come they didn't initiate emergency removal? It's all bullshit.

[pamom2crew]

If that were a fact, how come they didn't initiate emergency removal? It's all bullshit.
_________________

I don't know. I don't understand any of this case, cause it's all crazy.

[DontBiteMyNose]

It's because they're bluffing.

[pamom2crew]

They can't be bluffing too much, I'm now a registered child abuser.

[addy6]

You can appeal the indicated report. They should have sent you a letter stating that you were "found indicated for ......" There should be information included with that on how to appeal their finding. (according to CAPTA regs., can't remember the statute number) Mine didn't, however. I later found out that they "accidentally" were using the old forms that don't mention the appeals process! After getting the run-around, I was told that there was no appeals form and to just write a letter requesting an appeal. I sent certified letters to the case workers, various supervisors, and the head supervisor, and hand delivered the same letter, having each person sign a receipt for it, tape recording it for backup. (you will most likely have a limited time frame in which to appeal, and my lawyer had warned me that they are notorious for losing or denying receipt of things like that) They then had an internal appeal review with all their supervisor types, and of course, upheld their findings.
The appeal then progressed to Family Court. The first meeting no judge was involved, just CPS, their lawyer, the GAL, and her lawyer on one side of a table, us, and our lawyer on the other side. The idea was for them to negotiate a settlement with us. (meaning, we do it their way or else!) We didn't agree, of course, and our lawyer started pointing out some of the flaws in their case. The CPS lawyer stood up and sputtered, "Well it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree!" slammed her briefcase shut and huffed out. About a month later we had a hearing in front of a judge, who, (Thank God!) didn't particularly care for CPS and their stunts. She dismissed the case and sent them packing.
This is just my opinion, but I would shut them down right now and demand an appeal. They are just fishing for more stuff right now. In my case, after we were indicated, a treatment worker wanted to come out to do a "service plan" and "see the house." I told her that we were appealing, and she would have to get a warrant if she wanted to see the house. She never did get a warrant, although she tried several times after that to set up a time to come out. (apparently she just didn't get it!) Nip them in the bud! These people are counting on you being scared and intimidated and just rolling over. Use their rules against them, tape record and document everything, request your case file ASAP (you have a right to it and you'll need it! I used the same method that I used to request an appeal) and ALWAYS be polite but firm. Start rounding up any documents you think you might need- medical records, grocery receipts, affidavits from friends and neighbors, school records, etc... we even had pictures of the kids doing their various activities, field trips, homeschooling, and so forth. Anything that shows that you've managed to do just fine thus far without CPS's involvement. (that's to shut down the "imminent risk" thing) Also, round up people to go to court with you, they may not be allowed to speak, but the judge seeing a group of people willing to be there on your behalf can help.
Good Luck, and God bless you!
P.S.- If your lawyer isn't willing to get tough and fight, I'd find another! These people want your kids! Don't give in, and don't have someone representing you who will!

[pamom2crew]

tape record and document everything, request your case file ASAP (you have a right to it and you'll need it! I used the same method that I used to request an appeal


I can't tape because of the laws in PA.
But I alreasdy filed the appeal, and I requested all information pertaining to my case.
So far I have heard nothing, but I do know they received my letter because because I had it signed and certified.
So, now I'm just waiting.
My lawyer said that the 1st appeal will be in a courtroom with the local judge (he was all for me fighting for my daughter in the past, and he granted me a pfa, until it ended up transferred to NY, but if he remembers me then that would be great). Then the next appeal would be held approx. 2 hours from here, and the next appeal would be in Harrisburg, which I don't know how far away that is, but it's a ways away.
But, I have done everything that I'm supposed to, but the only thing with cps that scares me is the idea of them taking my kids. That I just couldn't handle. And they know this, wich was my mistake because I had to keep asking them during the investigation, if there was any possibility of them taking them from me.

[addy6]

Can you tape for your own notes? I can't write as fast as most people speak, (especially when I 'm in a panic thinking my kids are going to be taken away!) so sometimes I tape so I can recall everything said. (you know, like taping a lecture) How could that be illegal if your not going to use the tape in court?

[Momof31995]

the way i see it if you ask them if you can tape any meeting and they refuse then thats should send up a red flag that they have something to hide

[Marina]

I started a thread on culpability or fault.

The way they have it set up, you don't have to be at fault or "culpable" for the original complaint or report in order to get entangled in the system.

They can get you into the system based on "in need of services." The “need” evidence they present to the judge is based on parent and child interviews and the home inspection. Plus the background investigation which you didn't consent to.

What rights do you have during the "investigation?"

Think of it this way. Social services wants to offer you services and they want to prove you need services. If you were an ax murderer, you would have rights when undergoing a police interrogation, and they would get a search warrant to search your property.

Social Services doesn't have to prove you are an ax murderer, or prove your CULPABILITY, they only need to prove you are not a PERFECT mother or housewife, therefore you are "in need of services." Any tiny bit of evidence will do for court. Therefore they don't think you need Miranda Rights, a lawyer, or a search warrant.

When you go to court and there is a "PRETRIAL CONFERENCE", probably with only the lawyers and Judge, there is minimal evidence, no culpability or fault, but EVIDENCE you are "IN NEED OF SERVICES." You were "angry" during the INTERVIEW and there were "dishes in the sink." It doesn’t make any difference where the interview is held, as far as using the interview against you.

So your court-appointed lawyer does a PLEA BARGAIN, like 99 % of cases, and instead of a trial with evidence and witnesses and cross examination you get a PRETRIAL AGREEMENT which is a "settlement agreement," which you know nothing about, didn't agree to it, didn't sign, and are sold down the river.

You get a Service Plan, which is the same as Driver's Ed. If you flunk Driver's Ed for Parents, you lose your drivers license permanently, regardless of the original accusation. And not only that, Drivers Ed for Parents is taught by people who may not have children of be married, and the curriculum keeps changing as you go along.

I don't know of this issue of PRETRIAL AGREEMENTS has ever come up on this website, but after reading about this last night, and posting it this morning in the "Resources section," I am inclined to advise everybody to notify, and demand acknowledgement from, their Lawyer, the DA, the Court and everybody else that about what your wishes are on being present for a Pretrial Attorneys meeting, the Pretrial Conference, and on any Pretrial Agreement or Mediation.

[Marina]

Types of Appeals

It might be helpful for those reading this to understand that there are different types of appeals. I started a thread under "Research Resources" about appeals.

It seems that there can be Court Appeals and Administrative Appeals. Some court proceedings can be appealed, and some cannot. I think if the issue is ongoing, then you can't appeal it yet.

It seems that the Administrative Appeal is for the CPS Agency, and relates to Expunging your records on the State Registry. If the court stuff drags on and on until they finally Terminate your Parental Rights, then that can be appealed in the Court System.

But a person may have had their Parental Rights Terminated because they didn't follow the Service Plan, etc. whereas the original complaint or report may never have been founded.
Social Services will claim that it was founded because of all the court stuff, but all the court stuff may have happened because the person was in need of services, not because they were CULPABLE or at fault.

[rac]

You are suppose to get a letter for a indited report..????????? We never got one here....
Rachel