second CPS investigation, both from anonymous tips

[earthMom]

Reading some of these other prayer requests makes mine seem insignificant. Clearly there are lots and lots of people out there with problems bigger than mine. However, we are facing a second CPS investigation in two years - both stemming from anonymous 'tips'. The first, two years ago, was a complaint of a messy house and general neglect. Out of sheer ignorance and surprise, I allowed the case worker to come into my home and take pictures of all the rooms. Fortunately, God was looking out for me because the house was quite (unusually) clean! CPS didn't find anything to indicate any problems. The kids were home so she got to see them, although I'm not sure it counted as an interview or not. Anyway, it took several months but I did get a letter saying that they never found anything to indicate a problem and that the 'case' was being closed. Obviously I was very relieved.

Two days ago two different CPS workers showed up. When I answered the door, they tried to walk in as they told me who they were and why they were here. I had done some research because of my experience last time and politely, with a smile, told them that I would be happy to talk with them outside. They weren't happy about being denied access to the home but I was firm about knowing my rights. I'm proud to say that I stood up for myself, which wasn't easy, and that I didn't get upset or rude or inappropriate or anything. I told them that we'd been through it before, and that the last worker had pictures of every room, so I didn't see the need to do that again. They said they had seen the file.

Anyway, this time was another anonymous complaint. (shocker) It said that I had recently lost my job, we were having financial trouble, and that I was having emotional problems which impaired my ability to care for the kids. I told them that I hadn't worked since 1997, so that didn't make any sense. I told them where my husband worked and that we have to watch our spending like everybody else, but that we were doing okay. They got a bunch of info from me: SSN's, birthdates of the entire family, who our doctors are, what kind of health insurance we have. I don't know if I had to give them all of this, but I did. They asked me about my personal medical history, whether I or my husband were on drugs or alcohol, suffered from depression, etc. I actually had the presence of mind to laugh at some of their questions but I answered them. All were 'no', by the way. They asked if my husband was afraid to leave the kids with me, and I laughed again. He wasn't home right then, was he?

They asked if they could speak to the kids with me present. (Again, they really pushed coming in but I was firm on that.) I really didn't like the feeling of my kids having to answer questions. I mean, they didn't do anything wrong and they don't really understand why this was happening. Fortunately the questions were brief and my kids, bless their hearts, handled them perfectly. I'm sure it was obvious that the kids were healthy. I should mention that we homeschool and that I suspect this has something to do with these anonymous tips. Somebody out there doesn't like homeschooling.

Anyway, they said that they would have to come back for a 'home visit'. I asked what that was and why. They said they would need to come into the house, to make sure the kids had beds and stuff. I assurred them that all the kids had beds, that the fridge was full of healthy food, and the house was clean. And that they should consult their own files for proof. I reiterated again that I would not permit that without a search warrant. They said that they could close the case much more quickly if we could just do the home visit right then, and that if I refused they would have to get a court order. I didn't flinch and said that if they came back with a search warrant or a court order that I would be happy to comply. They said that I would have to go to court and the process would take a long time, blah blah. I said that was fine and they should just do whatever it was they needed to do, blah blah, but no entry without a warrant.

This last part happened with the kids right there and it was unpleasant, to say the least, but I feel good about the way I handled it.

I feel sure that they gained nothing from their visit, and that they have nothing other than this anonymous tip. We're not hiding anything and I'm sure the court talk was just trying to intimidate me into allowing them access.

I didn't mean to go into this much detail here but it is helping me to write it out. It's 4am and I haven't slept more than two or three hours at a time since this happened. I guess I should relax because I know I've done nothing wrong and they don't have anything, but when I think about somebody out there (and I have not a clue who is doing this) looking for anything that could be used against me, and when I think about the possibility, however small, that these people could remove my children from my home . . . . Words cannot express my terror. My kids have hardly ever been away from home for any length of time, and my little ones never have! I still breastfeed my two-year-old. I know there's no reason for them to be taken, but to be investigated twice in two years?

I'm terrified. I used to leave my 13-year-old home alone during the day once in a great while when I went to the store or something. I won't dare do that now because I'm afraid CPS might come back and intimidate him. I can't even be in the yard without wondering about every car that passes by.

I know I need to calm down, and that this will most likely blow over, but how many more times will we have to go through this? My husband is a pastor here and we have been happy in the church. But I'm thinking that I've got to get out of this county for my own peace of mind. I just don't want to live like this.

Guess I'll be getting a lawyer for peace of mind. Maybe they'll back off a little. A person can hope, right?

[mombarnes7]

my email addy is [email protected] ,, any help would be welcomed ,,,and if you know the answer to this that would be a huge help ,,, now i signed some paper saying i'd let them pay for my youngest to get a gyn visit and seek couseling ,,they never did there part so i did it on my own ,,,and they say this may not even be good enogh ...how long do I have to allow them to harrass us ...

they have walked though our home 4 times in this last year ,,,4 different workers and three even wanted the case closed ,,now we have this new lady due to a supervisor making the last man threaten us into signing something and i was so sick that day with high fevor ect ,,i signed and just wanted him gone and i have no clue what i sign ed but i'm sure it wasn't a lifetime commitment ,,he said it was just for the test they want on our youngest then they should leave us alone ,,,now this woman looks like she is lookign for things that are not there ,,,and i'm so sick and frightened ,,,,,

can you help me be strong like yourself please ??what can I do ???

[good dad]

Earth... welcome to the board

Sounds like you handled them well

You didn't have to give them SS numbers or any other info..
They may head to your doctors and interrigate them..You never signed a release for medical info. Remember that and point it out if they bring it up

As far as them "having to do a home inspection" to close the case is B.S.

If they show up again, tell them to put everything in writing and mail it to you so you can go over it with a lawyer before proceeding any further..

If they want to see the house and you have a digital camera or camcorder, go inside and take pictures, come out and show them to him..Same with allegations of no food, go inside take pictures of the food..

[Charlotte]

earthmom I really admire you! Even after being on this site I was intimidated by the fact that the SW brought policemen with her and I let her in. I would get an attorney. You are in my prayers.

[Frustrated]

I did the same thing, I went outside and bring my Kids outside for them to talk to them...I noticed there were leading questions where they identifiied the abuser's name into the Questions where they weren't supposed to according to the "Manual."

Anyways, my Investigator, she was dismayed when I went outside and she looked puzzled, but I just smiled...

Because they have been in my House for about 5 to 10 times. They knew my House was in order and clean...even was impressed of all the saftey gates, and plugs on the Electrical sockets. They knew my apartment was "good", so why the need to go in for???

The fact they wanted to look in so they can make something out of a Case.

ya know? They would go on just about anything, even Medical Neglect.

No Homeschool? they will claim Educational Neglect this time around but they know for sure that they can't do that because everyone homeschools nowdays. But they have pinned Educational Neglect on several Families before, so that is why they wanted to come in and see if there were books and stuff, if they sleep in, (talking about beds and stuff). etc...etc...ANYTHING is up in the air for them to make a case against you, SO DON'T let them.

YES! Best get yourself a Lawyer, because they will come back next time! They did with me for 5 Years, 5 Cases thus far.

[Railroaded]

I have the Same Problem! DHS wants to inspect the house and see my teenage daugther. This after the Judge discharged the case and DHS after 17 months. First the whole case was a pack of lies from a unknown caller that cranked called 911. We were not even home when the police showed up. And the report was Unfounded. The State unfounded the report of abuse. But it still stayed in court! I had no say in the courtroom, the Judge just listened to DHS and their lawyers. If I said anything out of turn I got yelled at! Ok I did everything the judge ordered classes, meetings and therapy that I paid out of pocket over $1000. At the court the city lawyer wanted on going DHS supervison and therapy once a week. The cost went up to $35 and I could not afford it so the couseling group dropped me. The bottom line is the worker wants proof of all the classes and therapy this was submitted to the Judge! Now he wants to come out to close the case! And SCOH (Services Childs Own Home) which the Judge order as voluntary is telling me that I have a open DHS case and have to follow the service plan. She is a social worker that visits to see my daughter and reports to DHS and is paid by DHS! I'm afraid of another lie that would open the case up! If need be my daughter could live with my Mother in her home. Here is one for you! My daughter is 17years old and will be 18 next year. She has ADHD, Depression and PTSD..she was never abused or neglected. Part of the the Investigation states that she was left alone. Never over night without a adult child of mine babysitting at their home! This case caused me PTSD, chronic fatigue high blood pressure, low blood sugar and depression. When the first worker came out she took my daughter out side with all our neighbors out and took pictures of her face. There was no marks on her face since she is not being beaten. The worker was yelling at me, I wanted to call the police but she said No! The second worker came out on a crank call to 911 and looked at my daughter and talked to my police officer neighbor and said he was going to unfound it. Then another worker that was ruin and abusive opened it up. She went to my daughters high school told lies to her teachers and the office. She took pictures of both of my teenage daughters and would visit a few times a week asking them to tell if they are being beaten. She would call 3 times a day and leave voice messages. We told her that she was not coming in this house again. The last time my grandson were in tears with fear and were upset for months. She took us to court and the lies stayed as facts and the truth was covered over! I could not even show the proof in documents. I feel like running away..we are already moving and I know they will find out were we are living!

Earth... welcome to the board

Sounds like you handled them well

You didn't have to give them SS numbers or any other info..
They may head to your doctors and interrigate them..You never signed a release for medical info. Remember that and point it out if they bring it up

As far as them "having to do a home inspection" to close the case is B.S.

If they show up again, tell them to put everything in writing and mail it to you so you can go over it with a lawyer before proceeding any further..

If they want to see the house and you have a digital camera or camcorder, go inside and take pictures, come out and show them to him..Same with allegations of no food, go inside take pictures of the food..

[Frustrated]

If I were you, I would call the Police to come to my house before opening the door....and step out and talk to her, and if you get yelled at, just calm down, you know she is no better off than anybody else. She is not perfect either. Just smile at her, and said "What's the problem?"

That is what I said to my Case worker and she just stopped all of a sudden.

I guess all the Good always win over the Bad.

[Frustrated]

LOL I just remembered one thing that really pissed them off...

I just kept on repeating the messages over and over...like a broken record, and that sure stopped their tracks and they get tired of that and they would leave.

I remember I did that once and it worked.

"What do you mean?"

"What?"

"Why?"

Just like any Children under age 5 repeats it all the time...and I would say that for like 20 times and say "What?" "What?"

And also one other thing, very important, they really get dismayed when you change the Paper work, they ask you to sign the Papers, like permission to talk to School, or permission to have a meeting, or whatever, or a Service Plan, I told them I don't like that "word" and asked her if I can change it?? She looked shocked...I told her I don't understand
English so I changed it and initalized it to better to my understanding.

She just stand there in Shock. I told her I will sign the paper as long there is something I don't like, I can change the wordings. I told her if I can't do that, then I told her I can't sign the paper, then she said "Alright..." then she grinned.

Then after that day, she NEVER came back and now she was no longer my Investigator and changed to another Case worker.

[Frustrated]

Hey, do you know why I did that? I learned that in College, for Business...

"How to chase a Salesman away from your Door and HOW to stop their selling their products."

And they train you how to chase Salesmen away from your Door...

Interrupt, Repeat Messages, over and over...and they will get tired of it...then they will eventually leave.

And it WORKS!

I do that all the time when Salesmen comes to my door and Jevoah's Witnesses, and yes, Including Cops, and CPS, it just works as well!

Thumbs up!

I should know all of this, because I have a Degree in Business.

HA!

How to turn the Services down, or Products, Do the same!

But their Threats, and their Rants, is Real, so gotta be careful not to overstep their Boundaries and they will definetely mean it.

Ya know? Just gotta draw the line somewhere.

[gideonmacleish]

If they said they could obtain a warrant, it was a clear bluff. Reason? Because, not only does the fourth amendment require warrants for entry, it requires they be "supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized". You can't anonymously swear an oath!

They've got nothing. They were hoping to go fishing!

[Frustrated]

Gideon:

Yes, that is true also...in the Warrant, they must state "what they are looking for" in the house...and state and name "the persons of interests". They cannot swear that they are looking for "certain things" but found it there, but cannot use it because it is NOT in the WARRANT! They have to look what is SPECIFIED in the Warrant, otherwise, they will get in trouble for finding something else in the House that is not SPECIFIED in the Warrant.

But you and I know CPS would love to grab anything goes in the house.

Just like any Police operate with a WARRANT, they must go in and find certain things that was specified in the Warrant.

If they say there are drugs in the house as mentioned in the WARRANT, they must find the Drugs in the House and god forbid they tripped and happen to find a Gun...they CANNOT use the Gun because it is not MENTIONED in the WARRANT!

They cannot just claim what cannot be backed up in the Warrant, and they have to swear by Oath that it is in there....

What do you recoken that CPS hopes to find in the house?

Messy House?
Dangers?
No food?

You see ....in the Warrant they have to be SO SPECIFIC what they hope to find.

I know all of that, because I learned Law in High School!

[ctilleydowney04]

wow i am so sorry i know how you feel, i was like that last summer, my investigation lead false and the case was closed, and dcfs was pleasentally nice to me but to this day i still fear leaving the gate unlocked i break into the shakes everytime some one comes up my drive way, they destroyrd my security, yes they aplogized to me for someones wrongfull call but it still scares me. i feel like i have no rights anymore, i constantally feel like i am being babysat,.it is so horriable.

[TexasInvestigator]

I am a CPS investigator, and nothing thrills me more than a case that is unfounded. I love to walk in and find that the children are safe and well-treated and not being abused or neglected. It makes my day! I think (and hope!!) that we all feel this way.
Anyway, what I am getting at is...
In Texas, at least, we DO have to do the home visit to close a case. This is just to adress that there is adequate food supply and there are no hazards in the home. Simple, quick and easy in an unfounded case. We can get a court order to do the home visit by getting an Order to Cooperate, forcing the parents to cooperate in the investigation. However, this is time consuming and drags you through the legal system while keeping an unfounded case open and keeping you in the spotlight until the home visit is done.
If your home has no health or safety hazards, and there is food in the house, you might want to consider just letting them do a quick walk-through and close the case. If you want control over the time/day so that you can make sure your house is clean and neat to your own Company-is-comin' standards, just get it ready and call your caseworker and tell them when they can come for the visit.
Just my opinion...hope it helps

[Bob_Lynn]

I am a CPS investigator, and nothing thrills me more than a case that is unfounded. I love to walk in and find that the children are safe and well-treated and not being abused or neglected. It makes my day! I think (and hope!!) that we all feel this way.

Well that's good to know, and I certainly feel the same way too.

In Texas, at least, we DO have to do the home visit to close a case. This is just to adress that there is adequate food supply and there are no hazards in the home. Simple, quick and easy in an unfounded case.

I believe that is the regulation in Pennsylvania too and probably most states.

We can get a court order to do the home visit by getting an Order to Cooperate, forcing the parents to cooperate in the investigation. However, this is time consuming and drags you through the legal system while keeping an unfounded case open and keeping you in the spotlight until the home visit is done.

So you already admit that you have a policy of harrassing families even in an unfounded case. That this is how you make a living. And what you're saying is that if parents assert their 4th Amendment rights, you will do what you can to trash that right.

If your home has no health or safety hazards, and there is food in the house, you might want to consider just letting them do a quick walk-through and close the case.

And do you inform the parents before you want to do a "walk-through" that they don't have to let you in, that they a 4th Amendment right to close the door in your face? Do you know that there is case law in Walsh v Erie that says you must be trained in protecting the civil rights of all those you investigate?

Just FYI, we're not ignorant.

[TexasInvestigator]

[b]Bob_Lynn wrote:[/b]
So you already admit that you have a policy of harrassing families even in an unfounded case. That this is how you make a living. And what you're saying is that if parents assert their 4th Amendment rights, you will do what you can to trash that right.

No, not at all. My point was that I DON'T want to harrass them by keeping an unfounded case going when I can close it by finishing the last task (home visit). And I am thrilled about 4th amendment rights, which is why I don't mind if parents in my own cases would rather do the home visit by appointment so that I am not barging in when they have had a long day, or don't feel their house is clean enough for company.
Look, I just want to make this person aware that not all (and hopefully, no) CPS investigators are out to get people and snatch babies from good parents. It isn't that way. I wish there was no need for my job to exist.
Of course, I cannot give advice, I'm no lawyer...so I offered an opinion. That's all.
Another opinion, that is also not advice...
Consider discussing with the caseworker if the home visit is required, why, and if there is any way around it. Can't hurt to try..

[DontBiteMyNose]

We can get a court order to do the home visit by getting an Order to Cooperate, forcing the parents to cooperate in the investigation.

You make me sick, mister. We're sick and tired of you fascist goons. Shrug if you want, but, if your goons ever violated my space, I'd defend us.

[TexasInvestigator]

I'm sorry I came in here and invaded your space.

[Frustrated]

That still don't make sense. If the Case is already determined "unfounded", then why the need to go in and "check" and to "check off" the list to make sure the Family has so and so stuff... and to make sure the House is in order and clean?

And it also does not make sense, when you would give them ample time to clean the house where you already know the house is probably dirty?

There are other ways to make sure they have ample food, is by Grocery Recipt and Video. There are other Witnesses that you interview to make sure they had food?

Everyone has a natural instinct to feeling "invaded" to their Privacy. It is like checking to see what kind of brand you are using for a Pad. That is how we feel, a violation to our Privacy Rights.

I do believe that you would feel violated if some one comes into your Bathroom and takes a look at your Medicine Cabinet? To see if you have Prep-H and they would eventually find out that you have Hemmoriods?

Come on, I feel this is pretty much an invasion to the Home where they have their Privacy protected.

Like the other CPS from Texas, Micheal, he said that there are other ways to "verify" to make sure you had food and stuff...receipts, video, witnesses..and documents. And oh by the way, the other CPS just told my Friend that "Eggs, Bread, Peanut Butter, and Milk" is good enough.

Do you agree?

Or does it have to be full in the cupboard? How do you explain with Proverty levels, or is that just plain discriminatory? What about Africa? These parents still have their Children and yet they don't have Food at all?

It is just so happen that we live in a "Rich Country" so we must have to be Rich in order to be perfect?

Got news for you, we are not perfect in any way.

[DontBiteMyNose]

I'm sorry I came in here and invaded your space.

You don't get it, do you? I mentioned nothing about this site. You may prey on the hopeless and those ignorant. But, as before, your goons never had access to my house or children and never will. Your arrogance is disgusting. If you ever think my family and I would ever comply with demands from you and your crony rubber-stamping judge, you'd own a bridge in Brooklyn.

Now, let's analyze what I've said and what you'd actually write on paper (hopefully your pen would work and not leak on your finely pressed khakis).

Me: You don't get it, do you?
What you'd write: Potential client seems confused, dazed.

Me: You may prey on the hopeless and those ignorant.
What you'd write: Potential client claims he lacks education, therefore his children do. Possible educational neglect. Additionally, he wishes to "pray" with me. Possibility of religious abuse.

Me: But, as before, your goons never had access to my house or children and never will.
What you'd write: Potential client is agressive and hiding something. Must sign order to cooperate. Request police officer to assist as he may have weapons. (Yep, sure do!)

Me: Your arrogance is disgusting.
What you'd write: Client says his house is disgusting and unliveable, recommend TPR.

Me: If you ever think my family and I would ever comply with demands from you and your crony rubber-stamping judge, you'd own a bridge in Brooklyn.
What you'd write: Client has threatened me and the judge. Client additionally states he will abscond if brought to court, especially to New York.

[Frustrated]

That is true, the CPS would write anything down as everything is reworded and twisted to their own Liking.

Always.

No matter how CPS look at it, they hear something and don't like it, so they put down so it can sound more horrible than it "seems". They like to exgerrate. ya know?

Client: I don't like the words on the Form, Service Plan, and would like to change the wording, as you got the wrong Name on the Form. I will sign the Form as long the words are correct.

CPS Agent: Potential Client is not co-operative and is a threat. Possible Psch. problems as Client seems to portray parnonia regarding to the Forms I presented. Recommendations to the Judge: Court Ordered Psch. Evaluations.

You see? they will write anything negative about such Clients....

Do you often wonder why we talk less these days?

It is NOT because we are not being co-operative, it is because you would write down anything negative about a Family. We reserve the Right to protect our Family Interests. And we also reserve the Right to retain an Attorney to look out for best interests of that Family.

[Frustrated]

According to the CPS Worker: Client can have the Right to look at the CPS' notes of what they wrote....

and yet CPS Workers refused them to look at the notes?

Why? What are they hiding?

CPS Director on another Website: Claims that CPS Workers needs to relax and make the Clients "comfortable", not to make them feel uneasy, they have to be williing to show their notes, they have to communicate properly, more positive and without "threats", and all of these are needed to improve Employee to Client' Co-operation. They said that CPS Workers not to make eye contact, and make the Family suspicious, just in a calm, professional manner.

You see? There is alot of things you need to improve on to regain Client's trust and co-operation.