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Kenneth2816
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:17 am
There is no question you have held up under the most deplorable conditions imaginable. I think you are correct that the GAL is intent on trying the criminality. Correct me if I am wrong, but neither you nor your husband have been charged yet?
Last I read, you could not see him and CPS was trying to get YOU to get a copy of some alleged confessions.
When a Judge says he will take something under advisement, it generally means he will consult reports, research laws, etc, then render a "considered" opinion.
I have rarely seen GAL and CPS disagree, but when they do it is usually CPS who wins. One thing I find odd is that the GAL who is blind, has it that there were fractures that don't exist in the autopsy reports.
This man is either having things dictated to him, reduced to braille, or taking the word of someone else. Remember, that these hearings are "on the record" hearings, and they are all tape recorded. Anything said in open court is part of the permanent record unless refuted or an objection is raised.
Your attorney left the Judge with the impression that there was a fractured leg, and that it was suspicious. CPS attorney cannot object on your behalf, you cannot. Your attorney must. Please consider contacting him immaediately and request that he ammend the record before the next hearing.
Most states have laws that what attorneys say is not truly "testimony", nor do they have to be sworn. GAL attorneys and CPS workers are "officers of the court" and it is assumed they render accurate opinion and information.
it is apparent that the GAL (who repeated 10+ times) is either seriously misnformed or an outright liar. Either way, it is up to the attorney to see to it that what information gets before a Judge is factual, and it is his friggin JOB.
Simply put, CPS anf GAL are allowing the proceedings to drag on until the criminal investigation is complete. In states where District Attorneys prosecute crimes AND also act as CPS counsel, this happens a lot, but is truly unethical.
CPS is willing to have your child return, but they are not willing (obviusly) to relunquish custody, and they won't until there is a resolution on the criminal investigation. Neither does it seem that CPS will stand up to GAL.
So in three weeks, what will have changed? The Judge believes there was a broken leg. Maybe he doesn't thinhk you did it, but he just might be thinking "failure to protect", who knows?
It seems to me that your attorney was ill prepared, and if this is true, then one reason may be that he fully expected the recommendations of DDA and CPS to carry, and he prepared no offense.
I agree 5 months is a long, long time. Plenty of time, I think, to prduce something more substantive than an allegation from an autopsy, whether it is true or not. In this case, it is obviously untrue.
Am I missing something here? Your husband, is he still in jail or what?
IMHO your attorney should go in next court date with a Motion to return your daughter to your care, and allow CPS to retain legal custody.
I am so very sorry that all of this is taking place for you and your family. The one saving grace is that, perhpas your child is still young enough that if returned soon, her own trauma will be less of an impact.
Last I read, you could not see him and CPS was trying to get YOU to get a copy of some alleged confessions.
When a Judge says he will take something under advisement, it generally means he will consult reports, research laws, etc, then render a "considered" opinion.
I have rarely seen GAL and CPS disagree, but when they do it is usually CPS who wins. One thing I find odd is that the GAL who is blind, has it that there were fractures that don't exist in the autopsy reports.
This man is either having things dictated to him, reduced to braille, or taking the word of someone else. Remember, that these hearings are "on the record" hearings, and they are all tape recorded. Anything said in open court is part of the permanent record unless refuted or an objection is raised.
Your attorney left the Judge with the impression that there was a fractured leg, and that it was suspicious. CPS attorney cannot object on your behalf, you cannot. Your attorney must. Please consider contacting him immaediately and request that he ammend the record before the next hearing.
Most states have laws that what attorneys say is not truly "testimony", nor do they have to be sworn. GAL attorneys and CPS workers are "officers of the court" and it is assumed they render accurate opinion and information.
it is apparent that the GAL (who repeated 10+ times) is either seriously misnformed or an outright liar. Either way, it is up to the attorney to see to it that what information gets before a Judge is factual, and it is his friggin JOB.
Simply put, CPS anf GAL are allowing the proceedings to drag on until the criminal investigation is complete. In states where District Attorneys prosecute crimes AND also act as CPS counsel, this happens a lot, but is truly unethical.
CPS is willing to have your child return, but they are not willing (obviusly) to relunquish custody, and they won't until there is a resolution on the criminal investigation. Neither does it seem that CPS will stand up to GAL.
So in three weeks, what will have changed? The Judge believes there was a broken leg. Maybe he doesn't thinhk you did it, but he just might be thinking "failure to protect", who knows?
It seems to me that your attorney was ill prepared, and if this is true, then one reason may be that he fully expected the recommendations of DDA and CPS to carry, and he prepared no offense.
I agree 5 months is a long, long time. Plenty of time, I think, to prduce something more substantive than an allegation from an autopsy, whether it is true or not. In this case, it is obviously untrue.
Am I missing something here? Your husband, is he still in jail or what?
IMHO your attorney should go in next court date with a Motion to return your daughter to your care, and allow CPS to retain legal custody.
I am so very sorry that all of this is taking place for you and your family. The one saving grace is that, perhpas your child is still young enough that if returned soon, her own trauma will be less of an impact.
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Kenneth2816
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:17 am
One tremendous advantage you have us that CPS seems to stand behind you. It is, s I have said, rae when GAL and CPS are at odds and thank you for clarifying things.
It would also seem you have a "law Judge", meaning one who will (because of the potential seriousness of the case, the possiblity of an indictment of your husband, and this Judge it would seem, it not being "swayed" by either side except on the merits of the case.
You also seem to have an attorney who is competenet and not colluding with GAL. However, there are "protocols" within the hierarchy of the court, and attorneys extend more professional courtesy to thier peers than they dispense rigorous due process on behalf of their clients.
Again, these are civil cases, and rules of civil procedure apply. The burden of proof is less stringent than a criminal proceeding, and Judges have a wide lattitude,
But at least neither CPS nor GAL is in "control" of the case and the Judge is. Again, a Judge can only act on adersarial situations predicated on estalbished law, due process, motions, and findings of fact.
I've never heard of an GAL attorney being asked to "recuse himself". Is this being sought due to his blindness? GAL are appointed and have a mandate to present the best interest of the child. it is not uncommon that a GAL attorney rarely actually sees or speaks with his clisnet, the child, but rather relies almost soley of "reports" from others in the GAL team and thier written assessments. A GAL must be appointed, so would there be an advantage to replacing the current one?
The GAL continued attempts to implicate you in some nefarious scheme, accusing you of "knowing more than you are telling", leaving the possibility that foul play occured, and attempting to portray the entire thing as murder are all quite legal in these cases.
The standard of review is "the best interest" argument, and as long as the GAL can capitalize on all the unkowns of the case, he can create a "theroy of the case" which may indeed sound just plausible enough for the Judge to err on the side of "an existing possibility" that your daughter's safety MIGHT be jeopardized sould she retun to your care.
It is easy to conclude that GAL: thinks there was a murder, you had some part either in the act itself or the cover up, It is entirely possible that with this GAL, both things can be true at the same time: he cannot rule out foul play, and her does want to see you reunited with your daughter.
Just remember that these cases are almost NEVER guided by the truth, but by the possiblity of untruth.
This is why the majority of them never reach a full hearing, but are negotiated, simply because a lack of physical evidence, eye witness testimony from other than children, inconclusive forensic and medical evidence, reasonable suspicion (in other words things that would in a criminal trial, be grounds to move for dismissal) are allowed to be presented.
Lack of clear proof one is innocent, a reasonable suspicion in these courts is given the same status as iron clad evidence in other courts. Again, there are laws, guidelines, and stautes. But as long as CPS or GAL are allowed to hold this much sway without ever having to pass the rigors of due process, rules of evidence, they can simply prolong a case without any proof at all, because the Judge has both liability and responsibility for the child, legally. and does not have to tke the rap if it turns out you are 100% innocent and your duaghter should never have been taken.
CPS never says "sorry", and GAL almost has an obligation to inflate each case to make the plight of the child seem far more horrid that it really is. These two are very, very good at what they do.
You hang in there. I smell victory and I am banking on your Judge.
It would also seem you have a "law Judge", meaning one who will (because of the potential seriousness of the case, the possiblity of an indictment of your husband, and this Judge it would seem, it not being "swayed" by either side except on the merits of the case.
You also seem to have an attorney who is competenet and not colluding with GAL. However, there are "protocols" within the hierarchy of the court, and attorneys extend more professional courtesy to thier peers than they dispense rigorous due process on behalf of their clients.
Again, these are civil cases, and rules of civil procedure apply. The burden of proof is less stringent than a criminal proceeding, and Judges have a wide lattitude,
But at least neither CPS nor GAL is in "control" of the case and the Judge is. Again, a Judge can only act on adersarial situations predicated on estalbished law, due process, motions, and findings of fact.
I've never heard of an GAL attorney being asked to "recuse himself". Is this being sought due to his blindness? GAL are appointed and have a mandate to present the best interest of the child. it is not uncommon that a GAL attorney rarely actually sees or speaks with his clisnet, the child, but rather relies almost soley of "reports" from others in the GAL team and thier written assessments. A GAL must be appointed, so would there be an advantage to replacing the current one?
The GAL continued attempts to implicate you in some nefarious scheme, accusing you of "knowing more than you are telling", leaving the possibility that foul play occured, and attempting to portray the entire thing as murder are all quite legal in these cases.
The standard of review is "the best interest" argument, and as long as the GAL can capitalize on all the unkowns of the case, he can create a "theroy of the case" which may indeed sound just plausible enough for the Judge to err on the side of "an existing possibility" that your daughter's safety MIGHT be jeopardized sould she retun to your care.
It is easy to conclude that GAL: thinks there was a murder, you had some part either in the act itself or the cover up, It is entirely possible that with this GAL, both things can be true at the same time: he cannot rule out foul play, and her does want to see you reunited with your daughter.
Just remember that these cases are almost NEVER guided by the truth, but by the possiblity of untruth.
This is why the majority of them never reach a full hearing, but are negotiated, simply because a lack of physical evidence, eye witness testimony from other than children, inconclusive forensic and medical evidence, reasonable suspicion (in other words things that would in a criminal trial, be grounds to move for dismissal) are allowed to be presented.
Lack of clear proof one is innocent, a reasonable suspicion in these courts is given the same status as iron clad evidence in other courts. Again, there are laws, guidelines, and stautes. But as long as CPS or GAL are allowed to hold this much sway without ever having to pass the rigors of due process, rules of evidence, they can simply prolong a case without any proof at all, because the Judge has both liability and responsibility for the child, legally. and does not have to tke the rap if it turns out you are 100% innocent and your duaghter should never have been taken.
CPS never says "sorry", and GAL almost has an obligation to inflate each case to make the plight of the child seem far more horrid that it really is. These two are very, very good at what they do.
You hang in there. I smell victory and I am banking on your Judge.
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anxiousmom
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
cjallyson,
You wrote:
"Prior to court being adjourned, my attorney asked for overnight visits in the interim and was denied. The only other noteworthy thing that I can think of from the hearing was that the social worker recommended that Taylor be returned immediately, with no reservation, and the GAL countered that if family supervision was granted, that he wanted one overnight this week, that I would have her all weekend, and then make an official return next week, and the social worker countered with that she thought that it would be best if Taylor was just officially returned. Period. (At this point, the GAL turned around in his chair and asked the foster mom if that was okay with her. Um, what say does SHE have in this?)"
So, even though CPS recommended your dd be returned IMMEDIATELY & the GAL recommended an overnight weekend visit & then the return taking place next week, the judge still denied overnight unsupervised visits when your lawyer asked for it?????
It's great that cps is recommending that your daughter be returned immediately. Hopefully that will happen soon.
I just can not imagine having my baby die & then having my 2 yr. old taken away. CPS workers, the judge, GAL, etc., should experience that & see how it feels!!! To loose a child is the most painful thing to endure.
We had a baby die in 1994. He was 8 & 1/2 weeks old. He never left the NICU (neontatal intensive care unit) after his birth. He was born with spina bifida & hydrocephalus. His case was very unusual....the drs.---leading neurosurgeons---were baffled by it. He was unable to breath on his own for some reason....could not get off the ventilator & we were told he never would. We made the painful & difficult decision to remove him from the ventilator, as to keep him on it he would of had to go through 3 more surgeries (had already undergone 2)---to place a feeding tube in his stomach (Current feeding tube was routed through his nose), tie up his stomach & place a trach in his esophagous for the breathing tube. (At the the time, the breathing tube was inserted down his throat through his mouth).
I'm not sure we made the right decision........it was soon after that that Christopher Reeves had his accident that left him paralyzed & on a breathing machine for many years until he died not too long ago. Look at ALL of the good he did & the life he kept living even AFTER being on a breathing machine 24 hours a day.
I think about my son Timothy every day.
Loosing a child that dies is very painful & difficult......I can't imagine going through that AND being separated from my lving child via CPS & the courts.
Oh, and I agree that the GAL had no right to ask the fostermom if "that was alright with her." Her job is to take care of your daughter....she has no say as to when your daughter is returned, visitation, etc.
Take care & I hope you get your dd back soon!!!!!
You wrote:
"Prior to court being adjourned, my attorney asked for overnight visits in the interim and was denied. The only other noteworthy thing that I can think of from the hearing was that the social worker recommended that Taylor be returned immediately, with no reservation, and the GAL countered that if family supervision was granted, that he wanted one overnight this week, that I would have her all weekend, and then make an official return next week, and the social worker countered with that she thought that it would be best if Taylor was just officially returned. Period. (At this point, the GAL turned around in his chair and asked the foster mom if that was okay with her. Um, what say does SHE have in this?)"
So, even though CPS recommended your dd be returned IMMEDIATELY & the GAL recommended an overnight weekend visit & then the return taking place next week, the judge still denied overnight unsupervised visits when your lawyer asked for it?????
It's great that cps is recommending that your daughter be returned immediately. Hopefully that will happen soon.
I just can not imagine having my baby die & then having my 2 yr. old taken away. CPS workers, the judge, GAL, etc., should experience that & see how it feels!!! To loose a child is the most painful thing to endure.
We had a baby die in 1994. He was 8 & 1/2 weeks old. He never left the NICU (neontatal intensive care unit) after his birth. He was born with spina bifida & hydrocephalus. His case was very unusual....the drs.---leading neurosurgeons---were baffled by it. He was unable to breath on his own for some reason....could not get off the ventilator & we were told he never would. We made the painful & difficult decision to remove him from the ventilator, as to keep him on it he would of had to go through 3 more surgeries (had already undergone 2)---to place a feeding tube in his stomach (Current feeding tube was routed through his nose), tie up his stomach & place a trach in his esophagous for the breathing tube. (At the the time, the breathing tube was inserted down his throat through his mouth).
I'm not sure we made the right decision........it was soon after that that Christopher Reeves had his accident that left him paralyzed & on a breathing machine for many years until he died not too long ago. Look at ALL of the good he did & the life he kept living even AFTER being on a breathing machine 24 hours a day.
I think about my son Timothy every day.
Loosing a child that dies is very painful & difficult......I can't imagine going through that AND being separated from my lving child via CPS & the courts.
Oh, and I agree that the GAL had no right to ask the fostermom if "that was alright with her." Her job is to take care of your daughter....she has no say as to when your daughter is returned, visitation, etc.
Take care & I hope you get your dd back soon!!!!!
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Kenneth2816
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:17 am
Your post clears up a lot. If an investigation is ongoing, and the question was asked about "who the suspects were", this trumps everything else. You were named in open court as a "suspect".
From this I gather that a conclusion has been made of non accidental death. Even the Judge cannot compel NCIS to release information. There is no way this Judge is going to make a case decision until the criminal investigation is closed.
That your husband is still being detained without bail is staggering.
My very strong sugesstion is that you reach out to whomever at CPS is sympathetic and ask for some therapeutic support. These people have all the money in the world and they can and wil use it for good things as well as bad.
One thing is certain. They have sided with you. They have gone on record. But they do not do criminal investigations, and now, can only do what this Judge allows.
There is an abundance of documented evidence of what a good mother you are. There is NO evidence you are a danger to your daughter.
You are correct that there will be no magic moment when eyes are opened and you are suddenly given your daughter back. I am sorry to say this.
If your attorney could file a motion to dismiss, CPS may well not fight it. This would put everything back in the criminal arena. GAL however, would fight it. It would be a trail about whther or not theri should be a trial. They are ugly, and if you have a lawyer with the balls enough to do it, this literally forces everyone to lay their cards on the table and let the rules of law, and evidence take the place of reports and inuendo.
The only thing keeping you from your child is the petiton. You can be suspected of being Osama Bin Laden and there is NO criminal statute that states you cannot raise your own child.
If your attorney is already talking about "winning on appeal", this is generally an indicator that he does not have much faith in the outcome.
There must be an adjudication. This is being held up by everyone waiting on the outcome of the criminal part. It is wrong, but legal.
You have a civil court hamstrung by USMCJ jurisdiction, and the NCIS lady came "without notice" because there was no subpoena.
What this means, is she came of her own volition since she would not be subject to the authority of a civilian subpoena UNLESS the case was at the adjudicatroy phase, and then only if JAG consented to honor the subpoena.
I do have another suggestion. Writing or calling your Senator or Congressman. NCIC is Federal. There is no barrier to becoming involved on their part. Your own attorney may even say it cannot hurt. But unless there is some sort of intervention at a level higher, the Judge and GAL can delay this thing by "ordering more reports" more team meetings, which is really the only legal thing this Judge can do and still somehow justify it "as the best interest of the child".
That is why the illogic of asking for a letter from your psych. next copurt date, it will be somethng else.
This doesn't mean the Judge is against you. I think the guy is a bit overwhelmed and truly does not know which part to believe, and her has been mandated to be the ultimate protector of your child.
From this I gather that a conclusion has been made of non accidental death. Even the Judge cannot compel NCIS to release information. There is no way this Judge is going to make a case decision until the criminal investigation is closed.
That your husband is still being detained without bail is staggering.
My very strong sugesstion is that you reach out to whomever at CPS is sympathetic and ask for some therapeutic support. These people have all the money in the world and they can and wil use it for good things as well as bad.
One thing is certain. They have sided with you. They have gone on record. But they do not do criminal investigations, and now, can only do what this Judge allows.
There is an abundance of documented evidence of what a good mother you are. There is NO evidence you are a danger to your daughter.
You are correct that there will be no magic moment when eyes are opened and you are suddenly given your daughter back. I am sorry to say this.
If your attorney could file a motion to dismiss, CPS may well not fight it. This would put everything back in the criminal arena. GAL however, would fight it. It would be a trail about whther or not theri should be a trial. They are ugly, and if you have a lawyer with the balls enough to do it, this literally forces everyone to lay their cards on the table and let the rules of law, and evidence take the place of reports and inuendo.
The only thing keeping you from your child is the petiton. You can be suspected of being Osama Bin Laden and there is NO criminal statute that states you cannot raise your own child.
If your attorney is already talking about "winning on appeal", this is generally an indicator that he does not have much faith in the outcome.
There must be an adjudication. This is being held up by everyone waiting on the outcome of the criminal part. It is wrong, but legal.
You have a civil court hamstrung by USMCJ jurisdiction, and the NCIS lady came "without notice" because there was no subpoena.
What this means, is she came of her own volition since she would not be subject to the authority of a civilian subpoena UNLESS the case was at the adjudicatroy phase, and then only if JAG consented to honor the subpoena.
I do have another suggestion. Writing or calling your Senator or Congressman. NCIC is Federal. There is no barrier to becoming involved on their part. Your own attorney may even say it cannot hurt. But unless there is some sort of intervention at a level higher, the Judge and GAL can delay this thing by "ordering more reports" more team meetings, which is really the only legal thing this Judge can do and still somehow justify it "as the best interest of the child".
That is why the illogic of asking for a letter from your psych. next copurt date, it will be somethng else.
This doesn't mean the Judge is against you. I think the guy is a bit overwhelmed and truly does not know which part to believe, and her has been mandated to be the ultimate protector of your child.
.
.
My very strong sugesstion is that you reach out to whomever at CPS is sympathetic and ask for some therapeutic support.
If your attorney could file a motion to dismiss, CPS may well not fight it.
if you have a lawyer with the balls enough to do it
let the rules of law, and evidence take the place of reports and inuendo.
This doesn't mean the Judge is against you. I think the guy is a bit overwhelmed and truly does not know which part to believe
.
Last edited by Marina on Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenneth2816
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:17 am
Marina:
This hardly seems the forum to negate the post of another without at least positing something substantive yourself.
Your entire line of logic by employing such finite words as "ever" could easily be rendered moot by merely ONE example for instance, where an attorney DID have the balls to move for a dismissal, or CPS DID back down. In fact, this would no longer be evidence, it would be proof.
Do not misunderstand. I have no problem with being wrong, nor do I think disagreements are bad. But I do believe it is not about what you think of my post, but what we can collectively, based on our own unique experiences, suggest that may help another suffering person.
As such, I think your approach is silly and patently unoriginal, but I respect your right to it, though I question what you think it adds.
None of us are attorneys and our "opinions" are simply that. My opinion is thus no better than yours, and in fact, I believe the more differing opinions there are, the greater the benefit.
But then, that would require you to give your own opinion rather than merely "correcting" that of another.
Respectfully,
Kenneth
This hardly seems the forum to negate the post of another without at least positing something substantive yourself.
Your entire line of logic by employing such finite words as "ever" could easily be rendered moot by merely ONE example for instance, where an attorney DID have the balls to move for a dismissal, or CPS DID back down. In fact, this would no longer be evidence, it would be proof.
Do not misunderstand. I have no problem with being wrong, nor do I think disagreements are bad. But I do believe it is not about what you think of my post, but what we can collectively, based on our own unique experiences, suggest that may help another suffering person.
As such, I think your approach is silly and patently unoriginal, but I respect your right to it, though I question what you think it adds.
None of us are attorneys and our "opinions" are simply that. My opinion is thus no better than yours, and in fact, I believe the more differing opinions there are, the greater the benefit.
But then, that would require you to give your own opinion rather than merely "correcting" that of another.
Respectfully,
Kenneth
According to ASFA (Adoption Safe Family Act) CPS was to have given your daughter to a relative for foster placement. They have broken the Federal Law in this regards.
According to this Act if a child is left in foster care for 12 months then they can push for adoption. You have been through so much and I know that this is difficult but, you need to start really fighting back with knowledge about the State Statutes and the state cps manual. They are stalling.
You need to do a Declaration of Facts and Objections and Corrections forms. These need to be filed at the courthouse. Your lawyer is suppose to file them. If you want to do this Susan can help you. Here is her email address [email protected].
Read every thing you can about GAL's rules and laws in your state.
Linda, the owner of this site, just put this on the front page.
http://www.fightcps.com/
Sept 16th post is about writing your state legislator.
This would be very important for you to do because your case needs help now. And I know you know that.
I cannot even imagine your pain and heartache.
According to this Act if a child is left in foster care for 12 months then they can push for adoption. You have been through so much and I know that this is difficult but, you need to start really fighting back with knowledge about the State Statutes and the state cps manual. They are stalling.
You need to do a Declaration of Facts and Objections and Corrections forms. These need to be filed at the courthouse. Your lawyer is suppose to file them. If you want to do this Susan can help you. Here is her email address [email protected].
Read every thing you can about GAL's rules and laws in your state.
Linda, the owner of this site, just put this on the front page.
http://www.fightcps.com/
Sept 16th post is about writing your state legislator.
This would be very important for you to do because your case needs help now. And I know you know that.
I cannot even imagine your pain and heartache.
**********************************
This is not legal advice;hopefully wisdom
To put it in simple terms…when the authorities ARE the perpetrators and the perpetrators ARE the authorities, there is no earthly justice or recourse, at the end of the day (unless the American people wake up).
Therefore, those who have achieved the highest levels of power seek to ‘enjoy’ the most grievous and extreme injustices. For many of those in the highest circles of power, the greatest statement of power is to perpetrate the greatest possible injustice…the savage, brutal traumatization and abuse of an innocent child.
http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/ MattTwoFour
"Ultimately, the law is only as good as the judge" --- D.X. Yue, 2005, in "law, reason and judicial fraud"
http://www.parentalrightsandjustice.com/index.cgi?ctype=Page;site_id=1;objid=45;curloc=Site:1
This is not legal advice;hopefully wisdom
To put it in simple terms…when the authorities ARE the perpetrators and the perpetrators ARE the authorities, there is no earthly justice or recourse, at the end of the day (unless the American people wake up).
Therefore, those who have achieved the highest levels of power seek to ‘enjoy’ the most grievous and extreme injustices. For many of those in the highest circles of power, the greatest statement of power is to perpetrate the greatest possible injustice…the savage, brutal traumatization and abuse of an innocent child.
http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/ MattTwoFour
"Ultimately, the law is only as good as the judge" --- D.X. Yue, 2005, in "law, reason and judicial fraud"
http://www.parentalrightsandjustice.com/index.cgi?ctype=Page;site_id=1;objid=45;curloc=Site:1
.
My friend's children were put in foster care, she started drinking even more I think, she lost her home, her mother died, on the day of the funeral her daughter had a stroke from drugs and alcohol, and she was very depressed.
She lost her Medicaid because she didn't have the children. So she ran out of anti-depressants. I thought that if she got on the recommended mental health program that she could get some more of her medications to help her cope.
The court kept ordering her to get a mental health evaluation. The evaluation is based on "self-identification," so if you don't admit you have a problem, then the counselor won't recommend services and Social Services won't pay for it.
I kept encouraging her to voluntarily offer to participate in services anyway because if she didn't go then she wouldn't have a chance in court. The social worker won't flat out order services, but plays a cat and mouse game of "you have to admit you have a problem first" so they can use that against her in court.
This way, they get you either way:
You are in denial, or
You admitted you had a problem.
The counselor asked my friend if there were any friends she could talk to about her case, in order to satisfy Social Services and the court order. My friend gave the counselor my number because I had never seen her drunk. I told the counselor that Social Services removed the children because she was an alcoholic, the Court ordered Services because she was an alcoholic, and she is not going to get the children back unless she gets treatment. It is that simple.
So she wrote up the necessary recommendation for services, and added that it wasn't necessasry to admit she had a problem, but coming to classes and group would help her see if she had a problem and then they could go on and work on it more from there.
We picked up this report from Mental Health on the way to court for a permanency hearing where they recommended adoption. Her lawyer looked triumphant and handed the recommendation to the judge.
The counselor also ordered individual counseling to impress the court, and so Mom could get more medications.
All of this effort backfired. The medications made her do things she wouldn't normally do, and she became very frightened of them. She had to go back and ask for her medications to be changed.
Then when we got to court, the psychiatrist's report said she had "anxiety induced" alcoholism and a bunch of other things. The Dr. only talked to her for 20 minutes.
When Social Services pays for the counseling, then they own the report. It is better to get your own services, and let your insurance pay for if you have it. Then you are the customer, not the Agency, and they will give you what you want to hear.
I have seen similar stories on this forum.
Sometimes you will read on Termination of Parental Rights cases online that the judge orders the mother to take medications even if they make her sick. This was in a case in Virginia Beach.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 156021.txt
.
My friend's children were put in foster care, she started drinking even more I think, she lost her home, her mother died, on the day of the funeral her daughter had a stroke from drugs and alcohol, and she was very depressed.
She lost her Medicaid because she didn't have the children. So she ran out of anti-depressants. I thought that if she got on the recommended mental health program that she could get some more of her medications to help her cope.
The court kept ordering her to get a mental health evaluation. The evaluation is based on "self-identification," so if you don't admit you have a problem, then the counselor won't recommend services and Social Services won't pay for it.
I kept encouraging her to voluntarily offer to participate in services anyway because if she didn't go then she wouldn't have a chance in court. The social worker won't flat out order services, but plays a cat and mouse game of "you have to admit you have a problem first" so they can use that against her in court.
This way, they get you either way:
You are in denial, or
You admitted you had a problem.
The counselor asked my friend if there were any friends she could talk to about her case, in order to satisfy Social Services and the court order. My friend gave the counselor my number because I had never seen her drunk. I told the counselor that Social Services removed the children because she was an alcoholic, the Court ordered Services because she was an alcoholic, and she is not going to get the children back unless she gets treatment. It is that simple.
So she wrote up the necessary recommendation for services, and added that it wasn't necessasry to admit she had a problem, but coming to classes and group would help her see if she had a problem and then they could go on and work on it more from there.
We picked up this report from Mental Health on the way to court for a permanency hearing where they recommended adoption. Her lawyer looked triumphant and handed the recommendation to the judge.
The counselor also ordered individual counseling to impress the court, and so Mom could get more medications.
All of this effort backfired. The medications made her do things she wouldn't normally do, and she became very frightened of them. She had to go back and ask for her medications to be changed.
Then when we got to court, the psychiatrist's report said she had "anxiety induced" alcoholism and a bunch of other things. The Dr. only talked to her for 20 minutes.
When Social Services pays for the counseling, then they own the report. It is better to get your own services, and let your insurance pay for if you have it. Then you are the customer, not the Agency, and they will give you what you want to hear.
I have seen similar stories on this forum.
Sometimes you will read on Termination of Parental Rights cases online that the judge orders the mother to take medications even if they make her sick. This was in a case in Virginia Beach.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 156021.txt
At hearing, mother's psychotherapist testified that mother
overcame depression without medication and that when mother had
been given medication (Prozac), it was "very unsuccessful and
probably set her back." In spite of that testimony, and
evidence that mother had an allergic reaction to the medication,
at the end of the hearing, the trial judge said to mother, "if
that doctor prescribes medication and you don't take it, I'll
take these children, and I will put them up for adoption. Do
you understand me?" Subsequently, the trial court order
directed mother to take medication if recommended by her
therapist.
.
Marina,
The case that you are pointing to I have read many years ago, and even though the judge ordered the mother to take the medication all of the rulings were overturned.
That is a bad example of a case to look at, that case got me to my core. Probably because my case was in Virginia Beach, and the fact that the judges in Hampton Roads outside of VA Beach stated that the "well is tainted" as far as social services and the courts were concerned. It was determined that once the mother got out of the clutches of social services she did just fine without ANY medications, and got her kids back.
Not only that, but social services in VA beach got caught lying flat out, they refused to turn the case over to the new city the mother was living in and wanted to play control freak. It finally had to be COURT ORDERED before VA beach would give the case to the new city the mother lived in.
The sad part is the fact that case was an appeal to the termination of Her parental rights. So it took a long time for her to overcome. But because of that case, other cases in VA can use it as an example so it cannot be done in the future. Now all it takes is a lawyer smart enough to use it.
The case that you are pointing to I have read many years ago, and even though the judge ordered the mother to take the medication all of the rulings were overturned.
That is a bad example of a case to look at, that case got me to my core. Probably because my case was in Virginia Beach, and the fact that the judges in Hampton Roads outside of VA Beach stated that the "well is tainted" as far as social services and the courts were concerned. It was determined that once the mother got out of the clutches of social services she did just fine without ANY medications, and got her kids back.
Not only that, but social services in VA beach got caught lying flat out, they refused to turn the case over to the new city the mother was living in and wanted to play control freak. It finally had to be COURT ORDERED before VA beach would give the case to the new city the mother lived in.
The sad part is the fact that case was an appeal to the termination of Her parental rights. So it took a long time for her to overcome. But because of that case, other cases in VA can use it as an example so it cannot be done in the future. Now all it takes is a lawyer smart enough to use it.
Your congressman and senators cannot help you; it is against state laws for them to interfere. You must write your State Representative. However, it does not hurt to write your congressman and senator so that they are abreast of the situation.
Can you send me a private message to let me know where in TN your from?
Can you send me a private message to let me know where in TN your from?
**********************************
This is not legal advice;hopefully wisdom
To put it in simple terms…when the authorities ARE the perpetrators and the perpetrators ARE the authorities, there is no earthly justice or recourse, at the end of the day (unless the American people wake up).
Therefore, those who have achieved the highest levels of power seek to ‘enjoy’ the most grievous and extreme injustices. For many of those in the highest circles of power, the greatest statement of power is to perpetrate the greatest possible injustice…the savage, brutal traumatization and abuse of an innocent child.
http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/ MattTwoFour
"Ultimately, the law is only as good as the judge" --- D.X. Yue, 2005, in "law, reason and judicial fraud"
http://www.parentalrightsandjustice.com/index.cgi?ctype=Page;site_id=1;objid=45;curloc=Site:1
This is not legal advice;hopefully wisdom
To put it in simple terms…when the authorities ARE the perpetrators and the perpetrators ARE the authorities, there is no earthly justice or recourse, at the end of the day (unless the American people wake up).
Therefore, those who have achieved the highest levels of power seek to ‘enjoy’ the most grievous and extreme injustices. For many of those in the highest circles of power, the greatest statement of power is to perpetrate the greatest possible injustice…the savage, brutal traumatization and abuse of an innocent child.
http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/ MattTwoFour
"Ultimately, the law is only as good as the judge" --- D.X. Yue, 2005, in "law, reason and judicial fraud"
http://www.parentalrightsandjustice.com/index.cgi?ctype=Page;site_id=1;objid=45;curloc=Site:1
cjallyson wrote:My father has a consult with an attorney in Tennessee (where he lives) this week. The tricky thing about being a military family is that I am still legally a resident of the state of Tennessee. I have a Tennessee driver's license, and I vote in Tennessee elections. My husband is a legal resident of the state of Florida. We are drafting a letter tonight to send to congressmen/senators in Tennessee, but honestly, I'm not so sure what can happen between states.
I am a resident of New Mexico and my Husband a resident of New York. Our case happened in Virginia. Again Military family. I wrote to every congressman in the state hoping that someone could help me from back home. Only one replied telling me the usual crap about following the state procedures in Virginia. In otherwords, they wouldnt get involved.
I hope you have better luck.
cjallyson
There are so many parellels between your case and ours its frightening. People do not realize how often this kind of thing happens. I wonder if CPS staff take a course in grief enhancement. Find a family that lost a child and make things as difficult for them as possible.
I don't think I'll be able to focus on ours without thinking of your case and the many other people we are not aware of that are living the same nightmare.
Roman
PS feel free to PM.
There are so many parellels between your case and ours its frightening. People do not realize how often this kind of thing happens. I wonder if CPS staff take a course in grief enhancement. Find a family that lost a child and make things as difficult for them as possible.
I don't think I'll be able to focus on ours without thinking of your case and the many other people we are not aware of that are living the same nightmare.
Roman
PS feel free to PM.
Its so sad what they do to families who have done nothing wrong.
20 years ago, someone I knew had a daughter that died while under the mothers care. There was no investigation or anything for that matter The case was immediatly ruled SIDS. I am 99.999% sure the mother had something to do with the death of that little girl to get attention, yet no one ever stepped in.
Its just sick to look at the cruel injustice in this world.
20 years ago, someone I knew had a daughter that died while under the mothers care. There was no investigation or anything for that matter The case was immediatly ruled SIDS. I am 99.999% sure the mother had something to do with the death of that little girl to get attention, yet no one ever stepped in.
Its just sick to look at the cruel injustice in this world.
-
katgotsteve
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:47 am
- Location: Georgia
if you are under court ordered supervision, it does not mean you cant leave the state. juvenille court order proceeding, though they think they do, do not hold alot of water over state lines. unless the judge specifies that you can not leave, then you can. call it a visit or dont tell them at all. you are single woman, on your own with no family to help. ask to go stay with your father until the term of your pregnancy if and when you get your daughter back. you will be supervised and they can transfer the information over to tennessee.
i too have got pregnant during the time of dealing with them, after 12 years of trying to have a second child, i get pregnant in the most stressful time of my life. has your husband been charged? i think the reason your husband's attorney want you to view the confession is becuase it may not be much of a confession or he wants to see to your reaction to what he says. a person can feel so guilty about the death of a child that they begin to second guess different things that may or may not have happened. maybe she banged her head on the edge of the bed, maybe i grabbed her too hard, maybe i picked her up too fast, etc. it maybe something, then again it maybe nothing at all. view it with an open heart and mind, would be the best advice i have.
hang in there.
kat
i too have got pregnant during the time of dealing with them, after 12 years of trying to have a second child, i get pregnant in the most stressful time of my life. has your husband been charged? i think the reason your husband's attorney want you to view the confession is becuase it may not be much of a confession or he wants to see to your reaction to what he says. a person can feel so guilty about the death of a child that they begin to second guess different things that may or may not have happened. maybe she banged her head on the edge of the bed, maybe i grabbed her too hard, maybe i picked her up too fast, etc. it maybe something, then again it maybe nothing at all. view it with an open heart and mind, would be the best advice i have.
hang in there.
kat
-
debbiescalese
- Posts: 460
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:55 am
- Location: WV
Who told you that you can't have any lawyer or advocate for you in the team meeting? They lied to you!! You are absolutly allowed to have your lawyer there. In fact your suppose to have a lawyer there. The team meating or MDT is suppose to consist of: the social worker, the GAL, lawyers(for the parents) , parents, the da, any therapist involved person who supervises visits, Pretty much everyone involved. If the kid was over 12 she'd be allowed in there. Go to childwelfare.gov and look it up. It is suppose to be all intrested partys to meet and discuss the case. When we go the room is packed with people including parents lawyers, GAL, social worker, persons in charge of therapy of the children in total these meatings have up to 10-12 people at a time there. Somebody is lieing to you and in the process screwing you over. Your lawyer should know he is suppose to be there maybe even before you know the meeting is scheduled.
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Kenneth2816
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:17 am
There doesn't seem any strategic value to having you and the CPS worker view the video tape, particularly since the caseworker would likley be subpoenaed in a criminal trial.
Perhaps your husband's attorney intuits there will be no trial? At any rate, a formal confession is a well witnessed and documented event concluding with a hearing to verify that it was made without duress, etc. Unless and until this takes place, it cannot be called a "confession".
Since such a video will likely be a big part of the prosecution's efforts, a pre-trial showing is highly unusual, indeed. It might be that the entire interview with your husband was filmed, and the part where he comes to "explain" what took place, is being touted as some sort of confession.
Not to add further to your travails, but I have personally known an indivdual who was charged with the death of his infant (presumably) by hysterically and with too much force, attempting chest compressions.
In his video taped "confession", the interrogator had him simulate this with an infant-sized rubber doll (worst mistake he made), and all the while he was attempting to answer questions put to him. A jury acquitted him in less than an hour.
Just go being prepared for anything.
As to your Dad getting an attorney, a Motion to Intervene on behalf of your daughter might be good, but one never knows about the timing. Unless I totally misunderstood, and you are saying your Father wants to replace your existing attorney?
Either way, I would trust his judgement.
Of course your attorney can attend planning sessions, team meetings, etc. Most don't, but they certainly can, and in extreme cases, they actually advise the client when and how or when not to respond. They challenge findings, question the necessity of "safety plans" etc.
Man, if you could get the URL for the website this "foster mom" is posting to, you could have her ass. Even infants are entitled to confidentiality, and this is a BIG no-no in foster settings.
I am still very puzzled by how you can be kept from even speaking to your husband while he is in the brig. What sort of regulation is that?
At any rate, my feeling is that this meeting with your husband's attorney and the case worker will be a very decisive one for you.
In all honesty, yours is the most tragic CPS case I've ever personally known about, and it is just terrible that your family has to endure all this suffering.
I wish I had something more substantive to offer, but the best I can do is to say a lot of us are with you, and you with us, daily.
Hang in there.
Perhaps your husband's attorney intuits there will be no trial? At any rate, a formal confession is a well witnessed and documented event concluding with a hearing to verify that it was made without duress, etc. Unless and until this takes place, it cannot be called a "confession".
Since such a video will likely be a big part of the prosecution's efforts, a pre-trial showing is highly unusual, indeed. It might be that the entire interview with your husband was filmed, and the part where he comes to "explain" what took place, is being touted as some sort of confession.
Not to add further to your travails, but I have personally known an indivdual who was charged with the death of his infant (presumably) by hysterically and with too much force, attempting chest compressions.
In his video taped "confession", the interrogator had him simulate this with an infant-sized rubber doll (worst mistake he made), and all the while he was attempting to answer questions put to him. A jury acquitted him in less than an hour.
Just go being prepared for anything.
As to your Dad getting an attorney, a Motion to Intervene on behalf of your daughter might be good, but one never knows about the timing. Unless I totally misunderstood, and you are saying your Father wants to replace your existing attorney?
Either way, I would trust his judgement.
Of course your attorney can attend planning sessions, team meetings, etc. Most don't, but they certainly can, and in extreme cases, they actually advise the client when and how or when not to respond. They challenge findings, question the necessity of "safety plans" etc.
Man, if you could get the URL for the website this "foster mom" is posting to, you could have her ass. Even infants are entitled to confidentiality, and this is a BIG no-no in foster settings.
I am still very puzzled by how you can be kept from even speaking to your husband while he is in the brig. What sort of regulation is that?
At any rate, my feeling is that this meeting with your husband's attorney and the case worker will be a very decisive one for you.
In all honesty, yours is the most tragic CPS case I've ever personally known about, and it is just terrible that your family has to endure all this suffering.
I wish I had something more substantive to offer, but the best I can do is to say a lot of us are with you, and you with us, daily.
Hang in there.
.
Do a search of "videotaped confessions" on the Hawaii government site.
http://www.ehawaii.gov/dakine/index.html
There is mention of this law:
http://www.urisa.org/prev/Board_Initiat ... 20_All.pdf
HAWAII
CONSTITUTION (Privacy)
And
Uniform Information Practices Act
.
.
.
I am not sure of what branch of the military your husband is in but this may give an idea of what to look for in the military procedures.
I don't know if other people view the "confession" it might undermine the investigation. This might work in your favor.
.
Do a search of "videotaped confessions" on the Hawaii government site.
http://www.ehawaii.gov/dakine/index.html
There is mention of this law:
http://www.urisa.org/prev/Board_Initiat ... 20_All.pdf
HAWAII
CONSTITUTION (Privacy)
And
Uniform Information Practices Act
.
.
.
I am not sure of what branch of the military your husband is in but this may give an idea of what to look for in the military procedures.
I don't know if other people view the "confession" it might undermine the investigation. This might work in your favor.
.
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