Question for Fight CPS

[begley34]

I am a newcomer to this board and I am just curious. Do you all think that CPS ever has the right to remove a child from a home?

I would think that it is well justified to remove a child from the home if the parents have sexually abused the children, neglected them (i.e. failure to thrive), or beat them (i.e. leaving extension cord marks across their back or burning them with a hot iron)?

[Marina]

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CPS has the right to remove children if they get a court order or a search warrant.

The judge decides if there is sufficient evidence.

I would say that 70% of the time there probably would not be enough evidence if a jury decided the case in open court.

But when a Family judge makes the decision in closed court, and when the Family court gets federal entitlement funding for every case in foster care and adoption, then it is hard for innocent parents to win.

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[debbiescalese]

There are clearly times when cps should remove a child real abuse does happen. But removal from a home should be the last resort or and extreem case like all other options have failed or in a case where there is absolute evidence that a child is being raped by the caretaker.
On this website I have seen it done as a first resort. For little offences like poor housekeeping skills, alligations that can't be proven, things that could possibly have been accidents, domestic violence that can't be proven. In my own neighborhood I have seen children who should be taken away and some families in need of skills to parents but it seems like the ones that need the help don't get it.
You have to remember even in truely abusive homes the kids are still attached to the parents. Taking kids away from those parents and placing them with strangers can cause emotional issues. Instead of taking those children away the social workers need to work with the family to provide maybe parenting skills or anger management or substance abuse therapy/classes and help that family follow through with what they learned because sometimes people just simply don't know any better because that is how they were raised. I'm all about the helping aspect the breaking the cycle of abuse but I believe it is gone about the wrong way. You don't take first ask questions later. You don't degrade a family in order to bring them to a better level. You don't manipulate to help people. You don't get involved in one families issues and for the same thing pass over another.
Right now my lawyer gave us an example of a case he has the family lives in a run down shack with no electricty or water. The place was filthy gross he went there to see for himself. All these people were asked was to move to an appartment that the state was going to pay for to get thier children back. Now me I have packed my bags as soon as social worker finished her sentance hey a better place with running water and electricity I'd be there. Give me the keys! How ever this family did not want to move why I don't understand probably never will, and I also feel that the state finding and paying for an appartment for these people is considered reasonable so yes I believe first yes kids can't live like that so they were justified in the removal and yes they made an effort to keep the family together. In this case it is the parents that are keeping the family appart not the system.

[Frustrated]

The parent should have the right to due process and should be criminally charged of its crimes before the Criminal Courts. and be convicted of its crimes, then it will justify their removals of children from the parent who is in fact a true abuser or neglecter.

But if they are not getting due process, not being criminally charged of its crimes, then I don't think it justify a removal because they are lacking the evidence. I would believe totally in the Evidence that shows the parent to be an abuser or neglecter. Why ignore the evidence and remove the child? it does not make sense to me. I have seen many parents whose child/ren were removed from their care, and they WERE NOT EVEN criminally charged of its crimes? why? and why not? I think and feel that who ever abuse the child or sexually abused the child should be criminally charged of its crimes and be brought before the Criminal Courts and be convicted of its crimes.

I don't understand why they don't proceed and CPS says otherwise and you still lose the child. Without Criminal charges? Does not make sense to me at all.
I think to make the justification of a removal of a child, in any case, that the parent or a caregiver should be criminally charged of its crime and be brought before the criminal courts, and be convicted of its crime. They have the right to due process in this case just like any one would have the right to a Lawyer and due process.

Without one? Why? Because there is no evidence? then why are the children being removed? Just so the CPS can make money from its case? What if that happened to you? You never know unless you know the truth to be 100% true and CPS has been known and been caught to fabricate reports and lie in their reports. Does that cause for justification?

[Marina]

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Even then, we don't always know the whole story.

There could be a number of reasons why a family could not move to the funded housing.

Moving may cause them to lose their family and friend support system.

The parents may not have a car and be able to drive, and have to depend on family or friends for rides, or public transportation. The new place may not have public tranportation. This is a problem in a number of localities, especially if the housing unit is funded by vouchers. Voucher housing can be anywhere in the neighborhood, whereas public or subsidized housing is generally near shopping centers and public transportation because poor people need that.
If the parents do not have transportation, then moving may mean that they lose their job or can't walk to stores which they need to get to. If a poor family can't afford water and electricity, how can they afford to own and maintain a car?

If a parent has to walk to work or take the bus, then it would take a while to find a new job. It can get expensive to keep taking the bus over and over to every business along the bus line until you find a job. And not only that, most common businesses now want people to fill out applications on the internet. If a poor family can't afford water and electricity, how can they afford a computer to do job applications, and hook up the computer with no electricity.

Another issue is childcare. In the current location, the family may have relative childcare. In the new location, there may be no readily available child care. There may be a Daycare nearby, but if the parents don't drive and the Center doesn't provide transportation for poor people, then daycare subsidies won't help. Even then, the subsidies won't pay for all of the cost usually, but only 80 or 90%.

If the daycare is on the bus line, then the parents may have to go in one direction to take their children to daycare, and another direction to go to work. Bus fare for several children may become expensive. It would be really difficult to take an infant, toddler, preschooler, etc. on the bus every morning to daycare and pick them up in the evening after working all day. The parent may have to transfer on the bus also. This would take a long time.

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[Frustrated]

Here is an example which I don't think causes for justification of removals and here is why:

http://www.canadacourtwatch.com

Province seizes control of children's aid society after misdeeds and abuse to the administration of justice by child protection workers
(August 17, 2007) The Province of Nova Scotia has seized control over the Children's Aid Society of Cape Breton-Victoria after a Supreme Court judge ruled that child protection workers with that agency were found guilty for knowingly and deliberately misleading the court in a child custody dispute.

Article in Adobe PDF format



Court Watch receives many complaints from parents, especially in the Province of Ontario, of bias and unprofessional conduct by workers with various CAS agencies, especially when child custody disputes between parents are involved. Court Watch predicts that it will be only a matter of time to when the Province of Ontario will take similar action against CAS agencies in that province. Much of these problems could be avoided with the implementation of policies and procedures which would improve accountability and transparency with CAS agencies such as recommended by the Family Justice Review Committee. Link to recommendations for CAS agencies



Fortunately, with computers and the ease of use of video and audio technology today, many parents are now beginning to gather the necessary evidence to show that child protection workers are failing to carry out their duties with due diligence in child custody disputes. In one case involving the Jewish Family and Child Services of Toronto, a child has provided videotaped testimony to Court Watch that he was being sexually abused, drugged, threatened and abused by workers with the Jewish Family and Child Services from Toronto. The child's testimony included testimony of threats and intimidation by the office of the children's lawyer. In this case, witnesses to the mother abusing this child were never interviewed by workers with the Jewish Family and Child Services with a blind eye being turned to credible and direct eye witnesses. Rest assured that In the years to come, CAS agencies and their workers will be facing huge lawsuits as children get older and evidence of abuse, lies and cover-up by workers at these agencies comes to light.



As we all know, "the truth shall set you free." In the years to come, many CAS workers, even in their retirement and with their misguided belief that they are immune from prosecution, will soon learn what this well known phrase is all about as they find themselves hauled into court to face a civil action against them or find themselves the subject of a provincial inquiry similar to the one currently being held in Cornwall, Ontario.

[debbiescalese]

Frustrated,
"I have seen many parents whose child/ren were removed from their care, and they WERE NOT EVEN criminally charged of its crimes? why? and why not?"

I almost always agree with you, but there are some times when they can not charge a parent criminally and the kids do need removed as a last resort of course. Example Say you have 2 parents with say a 50 IQ this is not a criminal offence. However they may not be able to even marginally care for their children in an appropriate manner. They may not know how to budget or shop for necessities they may not be able to pay bills or clean the child like they should. Now first off they should be given a chance to aquire those skills with aid from the dept. The best solution would be to put them in some tpye of appartment type facility where things could be checked on, to make sure they fed the kids washed them etc. all efforts should be made to protect and encourage the parent child bond, however if such actions fail and I mean repeatedly then I could see a termination and understand it. There are cases like this and I belive the kids still should have a right to see thier parents regularlly but they also have a right to be kids and be taken care of.
However and I think this is what your refuring to ... if cps claims abuse like the parent hitting the kids etc or neglect like lack of food, clothing, shelter, medical care etc or the kids are found playing on the highway with nobody there to say not to do that. Those things are police cases and should be handled criminally BEFORE any termination hearings are set. In those cases I am 100% in agreement with you. Those things should have enough evidence actual evidence to be tried criminally where as in a cps case they can make up what ever they want to support the findings.
I've got to say when I myself witness abuse I would never under any condition report it to CPS ever!!! I have however gone to the police twice because I felt it was my responcibily to protect the child. The police will at least invistigate it before handing it over to cps.

[M & B]

There are children that should be removed because there is actual abuse.

CFS should need to have evidence and not just a suspicion.

If there is a murder and no evidence... there will not be a conviction. But CFS can come along and do whatever they feel is necessary "just in case" they feel something might happen.

[Frustrated]

There are children that should be removed because there is actual abuse.

CFS should need to have evidence and not just a suspicion.

If there is a murder and no evidence... there will not be a conviction. But CFS can come along and do whatever they feel is necessary "just in case" they feel something might happen.

Good Point there. I agree. I have had a case of "future risk of harm" where it did not happen "yet"? I didn't know they were pscyhic. But I agree with you, that they usually go with suspicion, rather than the EVIDENCE. Even those evidence did not get admitted in Family Court, just their own words.

[debbiescalese]

I agree with that point "futur risk" of neglect or abuse is convicting somebody before a crime has happend. It's like saying since every man has a penis they are all capable of rape so thier fore all men should be imprisiond because there is a risk they could rape a woman or a child. In CPS's own paper work they have risk levels the lowest is "min to low" why because every parent in every house hold could possibly abuse or neglect a child. I get so mad when I read cases where just because a soon to be mother once had a problem with x,y or z they could be an abusive/neglectful parent so they shouldn't even be given a chance to parent. There was one posted on her somewhere not too long ago about a woman who was raped and has some emotional problem steming from that and years later she gets pregnant and they want to take her baby from her. Makes zero sense to me. Her experiences no matter how negative they were might actually made her a better parent than most. Probably more protective because she was aware of the dangers out there.

[Frustrated]

On the News Board, there was a news story out from England, where the CPS has threatened to take her baby BEFORE IT WAS BORN! She is pregnant and yet CPS Worker is being heard on tape threatening to take her baby as soon as it is born. I think it was titled "threat to pregnant mother" on the News Board here. It was even posted on YOUTUBE, with her tape that was recorded while she was meeting with her Worker. Worker threatened to take it off and she did, but many people out there made copies from all around the World.

Removal of a child before it was even born? How do we even know if she was a good parent or a bad one? Just because? or even better yet, it was the past history that caused the removal of a child....say....20 years ago, you made a bad mistake and cleaned up your act, and lo' and behold, they take your child based on 20 yrs old mistake?? Does that cause for justification?

[Kenneth2816]

About half the kids removed could have remained. 500,000 every year.

267,000 are leglally "freed" for adoption, the rest go home or live with close family.

39,000 age out every year at 18. 30% of them will be homelss or in jail within the first year

69,000 families are obliterated every year by TPR

3,000,000 investigations every year. 67% of them are unfounded.

Another 750,000 cases are never investigated because they are "screened out".

There is absolutely no question that child abuse and maltreatment do exist, is as terrible as everyone says it is.

78% of all child removals are not for "abuse", but "neglect".

Neglect can be whatever an official decides it should be.

In my petition, the following was written as an allegation:

Mr XXX does not provide for the basic needs of the children because he allowed a utility bill to fall into arrears such that he had to borrow the money, which he repaid".

Guess they forgot to mention what would have happened if I HADN'T borrowed the money and the power got shut off in Mid December.

So. To answer your question, it depends on what you call "abuse" or "negect".

The problem is that you have 23 year old "social workers" with powers of law enforcement, cloaked beneath absolute imunnity who have never even changed a diaper.

The problem is that even CPS will tell you that the MAJORITY OF SEVERE CASES OF ABUSE AND NEGLECT GO UNREPORTED.

WHY?

In my State there are 10,000 kids in foster care. DSS employs 18,000 people.

Mandatory reporting. Every day care worker, every teacher, every counselor, every medical professional has been "deputized" to be the eyes and ears of the State. Worse, they can lose their jobs or face criminal charges for "failure to report"

Thus, every bruise, every tale told by a troubled kid, every "suspicious" act is reported to CPS.

80%. 80% of ALL CPS investigations are done based on "mandatory reporters". The next largest class is family members.

Only 2% come form "anonymous callers".

What this all adds up to is that out of close to FOUR MILLION REPORTED CASES, , only 25% are "suibstantiated"

In other words, there is a whole lot more serious abuse not being "caught" because the system is geared on numbers and dollars.






There is NO question that

[Momoffor]

I am a newcomer to this board and I am just curious. Do you all think that CPS ever has the right to remove a child from a home?

I think that all children who are being ABUSED should be removed from the home. I do NOT think that CPS should be going around on witchhunts on parents who do not abuse, or neglect their children. The extreme cases that you mention, I think the children should be taken away and never given back. You cannot rehabilitate a child to understand that mommy and daddy burned you with a iron because they didnt know better. Those are truely sick and deranged people.

The sad reality of it is that social workers are chasing the gold at the end of the rainbow too often to catch the cases where children really are being abused and really do need rescued.

Think of how often children are removed from their biological parents over somtehing tedious, its called abuse or neglect or failure to protect. The child is put into a foster home and dies at the hands of the foster parents.

[Momoffor]

and by the way,

I do not think that electricity and running water are reasons to remove a child as long as there are reasonable accomodations in place (like an outhouse).

I am from the southwest where there are many areas settled by Mexican immigrants long ago who still refuse running water and electricy to be put into their homes. Where on the reservation its a luxury to have running water and electricity. The amish do ok without it too.

[katgotsteve]

i have to make a comment about failure to thrive, failure to thrive in an infant is not always neglect. my daughter was failure to thrive, she would not suck a bottle. what it turned out is i had bought the ortho nipples and she did not have the strength to suck those, we switched formula and to premie nipples and everything seemed to be fine. i spent two weeks after she was born in the hospital being observed. she began to gain weight, but not as fast as most children, she was always developementally behind. i was told things like i did too much for her is why she would not sit up, she did not have the ability to move like most babies, she would not sit up, etc. for 6 years i endured all kinds of diagnosis, cerebral palsy was the scariest becuase i did not know what it was exactly, i finally got a peditrician who would list to me cry and tell him what the school said, what had always happened, he sent me to a nuerologist and she suffered from pet mal seizure disorder. it was hereditary in my husband's family, once she began treatment, she began to thrive and we are talking six years of trying to get help, now she is 12 years old, not completely up with her peers, but she tries so hard and has come so far.
also, being pregant again, i have already talked to my new ob and he informed me that since i suffered with high blood pressure and other complication, that could have added to the failure to thrive. he has began treating me ahead of time versus waiting for the problem. i am glad i have finally found drs who listen. after living with a failure to thrive case, i often get offended by the referral of it to neglect, that is not always the case.

[Gary Shaw]

There are children (and adults) whom are abused. Every single legitimate case of abuse is a criminal act. We already have criminal law that the perp should be charged under and convicted by, if they are guilty. People who beat (not whip) little children should be put in a dark hole for a long, long time. The biggest problem with CPS is the cases are Civil, not Criminal and the only punishment is to remove the children. A true abuser does not want the children in the first place, therefore no punishment. The children who are wrongfully removed (82 percent) are being punished. In those wrongful cases if their was ANY wrong doing the children did not do it, why punish the children?

Neglect is to broad of a description. 89 percent of all cases brought by CPS are for neglect and most of them are "In the opinion" of a poorly trained case investigator or case worker who is unhappy in their job, never had children, and knows little about life.

CPS is the worst child abusers on record.

I can not think of even one Government program that is run efficiently and produces the outcome that was originally intended. Corrruption and incompetence abound. CPS is the most corrupt and the most incompetent because they harm and tear apart so many families without justification or cause.

[Marina]

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Someone I know recently took CASA training.

Never been married, no children. Wants it to look good on his resume. That is the reason he is doing it. One time I asked him how he learned stuff - by memorizing or understanding stuff. He said he can do either. But "nonsense" was no barrier to learning the material for a test.

This is the type of mentality you will get when you call customer service for electronics and they connect you with someone to talk to in India.

Anyway he said that poverty alone was not supposed to be sufficient reason to take kids. He said that no- electricity and no- water alone were not supposed to be enough reason to take kids. Then he listed the reasons that you could take kids, one being that the kids were not attached to the parents.

As you can see, what he said was memorized out of the book or classroom notes. He had no way of reconciling that information with reality. So it is just like the CPS policy manual - it looks good on paper, but that is not what really happens.

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[Frustrated]

What really gets to me that CPS use their mentality and will remove children based on THEIR CRITERIAS of Abuse and/or neglect. Yes they have certain criterias now that qualifies as abuse and/or neglect and what does not qualify.

For example, I read of one story not a long ago on this site, about a Prositute with a child, whose was not supervised and the mother would have regular visits from men coming in and outs, but child remain there and sees everything.

Some one calls CPS and CPS says they cannot do nothing because it DOES NOT MEET THEIR CRITERIAS!!!

Same with Drug users and Drug houses, cannot do nothing.

But lo' and behold, a normal christian family that loves their children and watches them, and give them everything, and some one is being stupid and jealous and calls CPS and CPS comes in and says Oh yes, they are in it for so and so abuse, with so and so case. It meets their criterias.

See something wrong here? It seems like they prey on the healthy, loving families, and poor families but not those of whacked out, drug abuses, neglecters, they won't' touch them. Why and why not? I dont' get it.

What criterias? They won't say.

Gee I wonder why is that the fact they won't say what the criterias are?

is it "I say so?" kind of cases, based solely on their decision, sorry I forgot, on Supervisor's decision? Caseworkers has to report to their Supervisor whether they go ahead or not.

Yes, based on their criterias. Why leave drug abusers and prositutues alone and attack healthy, christian family?
That alone, does not make sense to me at all.

[debbiescalese]

I think it comes down to if you're say a drug addict and say yes I need help kicking my crack habbit and the worker likes you they will get you the help you need try thier hardest to keep you and your child togehter and then leave you alone. Now if your a drug addict and say you don't play the game they will take your kids and run. It's all a game to them if you kiss thier collective butts you don't have a problem if you say i'm not doing this or I'm not doing that with good cause or not your screwed. It also depends on if the worker likes you or not, or if they feel like doing there job or not or hey like cops have you ever noticed at the end of the month they are always out writting tickets to meet a quota maybe the social worker hasn't met thier kidnapping quota and your name just happens to land on their desk. CPS on paper is great wonderful idea, but when you add the human element to it cps is anything but child protective servics. I'll give you an example my husband from my first marriage had a daughter that he gave up for adoption to his parents, she grows up has a child, her boyfriend and her get into an argument and decide to play tug of war with the 4mo old infant, one grabs her by the rib cage one by the leg, child ends up with 4 broken ribs and a sprial fracture of the leg, the kid goes into foster care, then on to the boyfriends mother (who has custody of the first daughter of the boyfriend as well for abuse) after 6 months of service plans and parenting classes and the 2 of them splitting up the girl got custody of her child back. Period no checks nothing and is now pregnant again and they are leaving her alone. If another case worker had gotten that case she might not have ever gotten that child back. I've seen parental rights terminated on a whole lot less than broken bones! One time the social worker who comes here once a week with the cps contract agency said that it made her mad that dv could be going on in one home and they take the kids away yet in a home where the same thing is happening they don't even open a case. There is no uniformity and with the laws not clear on what is abuse and what isn't it will continue to be like this.

[Gary Shaw]

It may help some of you to understand where their commonality and silly ideas come from if you visit the Child Welfare League of America website. They are in the business of providing training literature, videos, and aids to Child Welfare agencies. They have over 900 agency members; every state and about one third of the counties in America are members.

www.CWLA.org

Look over their training literature. It is scary and tells them how to avoid the laws. I tried to join over a year ago and they would not allow me to because we are not a non-profit. I could however purchase their training aids, IF I COULD AFFORD THEM, only a government agency has the thousands of disposable dollars to join $1,600 and buy the stuff; hundreds of dollars.

[Marina]

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I just checked ebay and they have some literature for sale.

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[Gary Shaw]

Marina,

I do not think the State and County Agencies shop at EBay.

I do know they use CWLA for their training literature and my post said only that it would help some understand how CPS agents seem to be in lock step all over the country.

[debbiescalese]

Look over their training literature. It is scary and tells them how to avoid the laws.

I just scanned the site and didn't see where they tell how to avoid the laws. What is that under?

[Frustrated]

Yes, that does sound familiar. It was the same John Dunn here in Ontario, from Out of Ottawa, he is the one that is suing CPS (CAS) here in Ontario under guilty or not guilty plea and CAS is the one under prosecution. The same John Dunn who has tried to apply to the member of CAS Organization (you can apply to become a member and you can get info. thru there) and he was denied the right to apply as a member and he has the very SAME Letter who denied him the right to become a Member. However, the clause from the CAS organization itself had stated that anyone can join t become a member of the panel. This Letter was posted all over the internet for denying him the right to pay for membership and CAS won't state the reason why he cannot join. so now John Dunn is now suing Ottawa Children's Aid Society as we speak for a whole alot of things. He has caught them in fabricating reports, and lying. Now the CAS Ottawa is in big trouble because John has alot of document proof that the CAS are lying.

If you can google John Dunn's with Ottawa CAS, they are in the news for a while, and it is currently postponed for prosecution of CAS. You can see why CAS up here has a way of fabricating reports and got caught for it. Nova Scotia CAS has been caught fabricating reports and the province of Nova Scotia is now investigating Nova Scotia CAS for misusing funds and fabricating reports. Now Toronto's Children's Aid Society is also caught for the same thing and they are currently under investigation.

[Gary Shaw]

The website is to sell CWLA and the literature. The training criteria is in the videos, books and articles that they sell. When I tried to join I bought some of their teaching aids and it is there. Back then, about a year ago, you could preview some of the info on the site. I have not tried to recently.