Update for our story **They are pushing to Trial

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M & B
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Update for our story **They are pushing to Trial

Postby M & B » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:16 pm

The detective finally phoned on Oct 15th to talk to B but since he wasn't here I had to give him the message to call the detective from work the next day. He said to me that he just needs to talk to B to get this wrapped up. Hope thats a good sign and not just a nice thing to say.

The detective was nice about setting an appointment and worked it around both of their schedules and they are meeting on the 29th.


-----------


Today two people from CFS showed up at the door around noon "just to make sure B wasn't here"
I told them he is here , but the kids are not because they were at my moms. They said can we talk to him.

So B goes out and then he lets them in to show for sure that the kids are not here :shock:
The house wasn't messy but not perfect either so I hope everything is Ok.

Then this evening at 11pm someone was out there knocking on the door and I was too afraid to go answer it .
They knocked on both the front and the back door but didn't stay waiting there for long. I tried to peek out and see who it was but by the time I got to the door I just got a glimpse of someone walking away.

Everyone we know , knows we don't answer the front and they know to wait at the back to give me a chance to peek out and see who it is. - I leave the outside light on and the inside lights off , so I can see through the curtain on the door but from outside they can't see me.
I'm wondering if it could have been the neighbor but I don't have a clue why he would come to the door especially at such a late time , we have said hi to him before but thats about all.

Whoever it was left the gate wide open and I'm afraid to go out to shut it in case they are hiding and watching for me ! I was shaking for about 30 mins after that.




Anyway Oct 16th the day the detective talked to B was our daughters birthday and today was my birthday and they showed up to check on us for the first time. I don't know if it is a coincidence or not but it seems pretty strange.
Last edited by M & B on Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:39 pm

They came again tonight at 9:30ish
This time I did see that it was the same people that came yesterday afternoon. I didn't answer the door.

I just happened to look out the front window just as they were coming in the gate.

I did ask the neighbor today and it wasn't him at the door last night so it must have been them.

I sure hope things go well tomorrow. Why would they not check on us all this time and then the final weekend before the police investigation is done (I hope) they come more than once ?
Not only did we never expect them to come on a weekend but certainly not twice in the same day and then again the next day !

debbiescalese
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Postby debbiescalese » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:46 am

You signed a saftey plan saying he would not be around your kids right?? Since he was there when they came and your kids weren't they probably figured he was living there and was around the kids so they came late at night just to bust you basically. Although why they would think a woman alone in a house with kids would answer a door at 9:30 at night is beyond me. I would caution you though they probably wrote in the report that they came out and you refused to open the door because he was there. Be on guard.
See the whole point of saftey plans is to set the parents up for failure. They often put things in there that cannot be accomplished so they can take you to court saying your not following that plan. There is a good article on deltabravo.net about it. They have been known to put things in saftey plan like a child with seasure disorder wont have searsures. Like how can a parent stop a child from having a seasure? Like mine had children will be supervised at all times so okay but there were 6 kids here and yet I was expected to watch 2 of them get changed and watch the other 4 who were not getting changed at the same time. Can't clone myself. If I did watch them get changed I would be accused of being a pervert. They want you to fail it is how the plan is set up. I would if I were you and heard them knocking on your door that time of night (if I knew it was them) call the cops and say for a few nights I saw people I didn't recoginze knocking at my door late at night and I'm a single woman alone with kids could you see if these people are knocking to make sure nobody is home so they can rob the place. Sound panicked.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:59 am

I actually haven't signed anything , just a verbal agreement.

B has the meeting with the detective this morning at 9am.

Maybe they realized this would be their last chance to catch us , but they weren't expecting to come and see that the kids weren't here.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:37 am

Not what we hoped for.

All he did was try to get B to confess which he wouldn't.
He didn't care that the girl already said that it didn't happen and said they have enough to go to court.

The court date is in December and now he has an order from the police not go go anywhere near the girl which he doesn't anyways and that he can't be around anyone under 14 without another adult (not me)

It doesn't say he can't live here , does that mean he can live here as long as someone else comes to stay with us ?

And there are two charges , Sexual Assault and Sexual interference



I talked to a lawyer that has done cases like this and won , his price seems pretty good considering some of the numbers I have seen in other peoples stories. Im not sure if we can do it though and might have to go with legal aid which this lawyer doesn't accept.He was pretty surprised that they are still pressing charges when the girl said it didn't happen , but still said it would probably take about a year :shock:

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Frustrated
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Postby Frustrated » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:43 pm

Verbal agreement means nothing,but safety plan signed by you or other parties means something. If there are no saftey or service plan signed which in my opinion is because CAS (CPS) don't want to interfere with the Criminal Case. CAS cannot interfere with two cases which are:
Criminal Cases
Custody Cases/Visitation Cases
But the rest they can meddle families with. :roll:
With that being because he was formally charged with two charges so now CAS has backed off and wait and see the result of this criminal case but like you described, it might even be dismissed or thrown out of court.
This has happened to us before where the Judge has dismissed both Assault cases right out of court because there wasn't any evidence to back it up. It was two times that was dismissed right out of court between 5 Years but during that time, CAS did not interfere with that case and we did not sign any plans but CAS did put out the saftey plan and gave it to me but I did not sign them. Then they took back the saftey plan for some reason is because they know that the criminal charges are laid and they don't want to interfere in any way of that case. Because if they interfered with the case then the Lawyer will say that the CAS tainted the whole case by telling the child to say such things. That is why CAS stay far away from Criminal Cases. They have stayed away from two cases they were aware of with us, did not even bother with us for 6 months or a Year.

Yeah, most Criminal Cases lasts up to anywhere 9 months to a Year. I know man, it blows but it 's worth it when the case gets thrown out of court altogether. :D
It is easy to steal from poor people. But don't do it. And don't take advantage of those poor people in court. The Lord is on their side. He supports them and he will take things away from any person that takes from them.~ Proverbs 22:22

M & B
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Postby M & B » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:18 pm

Would we be better off going with the more expensive lawyer , or one that accepts legal aid ?

The expensive one I talked to has won previous cases like ours.

I also talked to another one that accepts legal aid , He has done sexual assault cases , just not with a child so young.
But he said his goal would be to get the charges dropped and not the criminal record , which we could get worked on later. Im not so sure if that is a good thing though.

Another thing he said is even if in court they decide not guilty , that CFS can still say they think he is guilty and keep giving us restrictions. And then we would have to go to court again to get them to get off our backs. Has anyone had that happen ?

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Postby Momoffor » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:41 pm

M & B wrote:even if in court they decide not guilty , that CFS can still say they think he is guilty and keep giving us restrictions. And then we would have to go to court again to get them to get off our backs. Has anyone had that happen ?


All the damn time..

Read about Finns case and what they put them through.

Momoffor
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Postby Momoffor » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:49 pm

Was your husband ever arrested? I couldnt find it anywhere that he was ...

Thats odd, enough evidence to go to court trial but not enough for an arrest??????? (Maybe thats how things are done in Canada??)

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katgotsteve
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Postby katgotsteve » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:02 am

The laws on how sexual abuse cases are handled are different from state to state. if your husband has not been arrested and if he were in the US, i would say they are going to take it in front of Grand Jury to see if the evidence is sound for an arrest. Again, you only have the detective saying that there is enough for trail, it all falls to the DA (not sure what is in Canada) to make the formal complaint and file charges. in most of the cases in our area where physical evidence is not available or the "victim" has given a questionable statement or has made the allegation against multiple people in the past are normally not pursued. again this is just in my area of Georgia, each detective, each DA, each county, each state, often pursue everything different.
my advice would be to research how the cases are pursued. you may have to open yourself up a little. DFACS court was held every other wednesday in our county and surrounding counties. i would go to one county one day and another the next wednesday, talk to people about their cases and find out how it was handled. i would then go and followup with criminal court if the case made it that far. alot of the cases that were thought to be criminal, never made it out of DFACS court due to lack of evidence and shotty police evidence or procedure.
there is a man in our community, he is actually my niece's paternal grandfather, he has been accused (that we know of) twice by two different girls, dfacs removed the last girl (his granddaughter) from his home. no criminal charges were filed and since he did not have anymore children in his home, dfacs never made him jump through the hoops. they often speak of patterns of abuse in a family, this family fits it to a T. his son is in prison for child molestion (he raped my 14 y/o brother at knife point), this same man is accused of raping his once 3 y/o daughter and giving her herpes, his father has two accusations of it, there is a long line of mental health issue in this family dating back to early 1900's, sucide, bipolar, schzophrenia, etc. yet this man after all the allegations, was hired by our local school board to be a school bus driver, kinda ironic isnt it. it is suppose to be about protecting children, but yet me put a man with all these issue in charge of caring for a large group of them.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:34 am

He has never been arrested.

The girl gave the same story to several different people including cfs and the police.And then her story changed and she said it didn't happen at all and that she made it up to not get into trouble(for touching her other uncle's private parts). Aparently she has other stories she has told now too but I have no idea if her dad is just saying that or not.

I guess at the time she gave the statement to the police it was not questionable , and they don't care that her story has changed now.

I have read Finns story , I guess I just didn't think about it yesterday.

debbiescalese
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Postby debbiescalese » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:09 am

Well I can tell you that the fact she changed her story may not mean a whole lot. In our case the accusing child has never had a consitant story. The story she tells her mother seems to be different from the account given to cps and that seems to be differnt from what cps claims which is differnt from what she tells us which is "My mother told me to tell these people this" not taht anything was happening. Yet cps proceedes. Although my case goes into the child on child abuse catagory not adult child abuse so taht might make it different.
Cps seems to think that if a child comes up with something it is true and if they change the story then they are lieing. which in my case is funny becuase in therapy the accusing child refers to the child that "abused" her as "my friend XXX" I wouln't refer to my attacker as "my friend" would you? If they seem to want to push it your going to have to prove in court that the story has more holes in it than swiss cheese. I hope your keeping proof of things it will pay off in the end.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:19 am

I wanted to ask , from the article on the front page from August 20 , 2007 "Make Your Court-Appointed Attorney Work For YOU"

Is this something that I can change around a bit for a lawyer that is not Court-Appointed ?


The lawyer that we will be speaking to is a Criminal defence lawyer , I think we will need a seperate lawyer for defence against CFS but will the criminal lawyer be interested in all the details from the beginning also? (Declaration of Facts I think it is called)

M & B
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Postby M & B » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:45 am

Well we met with the lawyer. He didn't seem to know much more than what I already did from reading this site and he hasn't done a case like ours but B liked him so thats it.

He said this first court date is just to get all the information from the prosecuters side , all their "evidence" and etc.

He did agree that I should record all conversations with CFS though and agreed that they don't do enough to find out if someone is innocent before trying to take kids away and press charges. He has his own children so he knows how easily this can happen to someone.



The CFS social worker keeps calling and I don't know what she wants. The lawyer sais if I don't talk to her she will assume we are not following the order to not have B live with the kids and make things worse for us.
I did try to call her back once but she didn't answer.This week has been very busy so I haven't been able to try calling back again.

B talked to her and she said she was calling to confirm that charges have been laid. Why would she need to do that , of course she already knew? She said that the CFS investigator is now wanting to talk to B , I'm not sure why when she wouldn't talk to him before ?She also wants to schedule a time to come to the house and talk to me , should I do it or just talk to her on the phone ?

It was hard to afford the extra gas for B to drive to his moms for the night so we decided to move the kids beds to my moms , I go there in the morning and get them ready for school and pretty much stay until they are all asleep at night.I don't want CFS to know that they are staying at my moms.



I'm thinking when R called the detective to tell him that T had changed her story , that instead of asking to have her questioned again that he told the detective that he thought that I or even my mom had told her to say she lied. Which we didn't , but when I talked to R myself he accused me of doing that (without the exact words).
I read about recanting and understand that they will think that , but you would think they would look into it and make sure before pressing charges.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:31 am

The worker called again today and left a message saying how she has been trying to contact me and to tell me what is going to happen. She called on Nov 14th and again on Nov 30th where my husband accidently answered and she was saying that she wants to come see me and the original investigator wants to talk to him now? She didn't want to talk to him when she was investigating !

I am so afraid to talk to her but our lawyer sais I have to eventually because she will assume we are not copperating if I don't.

She also said on the machine that I can't avoid her and if I don't contact soon that she will send people at all hours of the day.

We have been cooperating so I am not worried about them catching us because we aren't doing anything wrong but I am still so afraid.

Should I call her ? What if she wants to come to the house , should I agree ? It is too cold now to talk outside for very long and if I go to the office I don't think I can record her?

Our lawyer went to the court date and got some information but he said they didn't give him the videotaped testimony from the accuser so he said they have to go to court again to get that.He said their argument is pretty strong against my husband.

He also said that it doesn't appear that the crown knows that she has recanted and instead of using it as our defence he wants the crown to find out on their own when he questions why she hasn't been interviewed a second time.



Meanwhile her dad has got a letter from victim services , now I see he has a second one that sais in regards to our conversation etc. and applications for compensation for victims of a crime.
So he thinks it did happen and is possibly looking into getting her councilling provided by CFS ! Which I understand will just make her believe it happened even more...

My husband is also starting to get very depressed, He is pretty much convinced he is going to jail and talking about suicide.I have never seen him like this and don't know what to say to him.
This is so hard and I know it is worse for those of you that have had your children removed already I know our situation isn't the worst on the forum but Im just feeling so down .

I have been reading old court cases from our city and the one that I found that was the closest to ours , was where a 16 year old girl said someone touched her when she was 6. He was charged with one count of each assault and interference , and found guilty even though the girls story as to where it happened wasn't possible. He was sentinced to 6 months prison and 2 years probation.

What happens if they say B is guilty ? would he never be able to live with the kids again until they are 14 ? I have not been able to find anything about what happens...our youngest is only 3 so that would make it 11 years I dont think we can live like this for that long.


I hope someone can reply and give a bit of advice on whether I should call her or let her in the house. Also Should I mention to her that T's story has changed ? I wonder if she even knows.

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Postby Momoffor » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 pm

I dont understand why the lawyer is telling your husband to cooperate and talk with the nvestigators when there are criminal charges being brought forward on your husband. maybe I am reading wrong but they are taking your husband to criminal court for the allegations correct??

A lawyer knows full well, and I dont care what country you are in that "ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU IN A COURT OF LAW"

Any smart lawyer would advise their client not to talk to anyone about the ongoing case. Hell I was advised not to talk about anything to anyone (In the parenting class they required that everyone go around the room and state the reason they were there and what they did. I wasnt going to do that ..that would be admitting that I was guilty of wrongdoing and they werent going to backlash that on me later) and all I had was an administrative appeal hearing. Not a court case and no criminal charges.

I understand that things are run different in differnt countries, but this is a no brainer.

Its not as big of a deal for you to talk to them just to show that you are cooperating, but if they are going after criminal charges on your husband ..I might rethink him 'co-operating' with them. Thats like playing good cop bad cop. Only CPS is the corrupt cop digging for more evidence.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:57 am

The lawyer said not to sign anything from them , but that if we avoid them all together that they will make things harder for us because they will say we are not cooperating and try to get an order to take the kids away.

The kids aren't living with B that is how we are cooperating. But we have ignored their knocks at the door and not answered their phone calls.

He said their job now is to ensure that we are following the police restraining order since the police dont have time to randomly check on people.

I'm mostly afraid that I will say something stupid , just having her call without even talking to her gets me so upset.

Since he is a criminal lawyer I can't get him to talk to them or go with me , I would have to get a seperate lawyer for that.

I'm about to return some christmas gifts that I bought for the kids because we are so broke right now hiring another lawyer is not an option.

M & B
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Postby M & B » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:04 pm

Finally the crown handed over all the disclosure , we had to wait for two months for the police interview video.

Aparently it is very straight forward and forthcoming and does not appear to be coached or made up in any way. Our lawyer just got it yesterday so we haven't seen it yet , and neither had our lawyer when I talked to him yesterday.

The trial will be in the summer but the date is not set yet.

We have nothing to use as a defence , they put a 30 day time period when this supposedly happened so there is no way we can say B wasn't home that day.

The crown obviously thinks there will be a conviction otherwise the charges would have been dropped.

I guess we can only pray that the girl finally tells the truth when she is called in court.

Her dad told the crown that "people in the family have been trying to pressure her to say it didn't happen"
None of us has said anything to that effect to her , but I guess since she told her dad it didn't happen he thinks it is because someone told her to say that.

So if she is asked in court and makes up a story just like she did before , there will be charges of obstruction of justice for whoever's name she chooses to blame.

I am still wondering what will happen if they say he is guilty ?

How would they expect us to support ourselves if B doesn't have his job.

I had to grow up with my parents seperated and decided I would never do that to my kids and made sure my husband was "the one" but now my kids are being forced away from him and I can't even do anything about it.



The social worker wants to see me and the kids every 30 days. She said if I don't willingly do it she "will send people knocking at all hours" and will testify that we aren't co-operating and that she thinks the kids should be removed..

I don't understand how we can be treated like this when someone is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty , and yes I realize that it is happening to everyone else on this forum.
I am having a hard enough time coping right now , I can only imagine how hard it is for those of you that have had your children taken. You are obviously much stronger people than I am.


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