Afraid in Montana

[billdean]

I have just started the fight with cps. They took my son 30 hours ago. No charges yet but they tell me there will be criminal charges as will as abuce charges. All because I spanked my 13 year old.

[debbiescalese]

First welcome to the board. Second I'm sorry you had to find it. Now you need to google for your states laws conserning child welfare I'm in wv so what I googled was "WV state code" and found that section 49 deals with these issues. Somewhere in there you will find the states laws on spanking. In my state it says its not abuse unless you leave a mark. For example if you hit your child with a paddle and left bruises on thier behind that is abuse. If you smacked with an open hand on the butt afew times and left nothing not abuse. Also www.childwelfare.gov has the policies and proceedures both federal and listed by state know your rights because they won't tell you what they are in fact they will tell you you don't have any! You do. Ask for the booklet that cps puts out that has the definitions in it explains proceedure it will tell you that you have the right to appeal the decisions and what form to fill out. They are suppose to give you this booklet when they first meet with you ... they don't you have to request one they may even tell you there is not one but every state has it. I had to request one. You must educate yourself on their policies and use it against them. They tend to back down when you can quote law and policy. Most of all find a lawyer interview many don't just jump on the first one that will take the case. If you get a court appointed one make sure he works for you there is a page on here that will tell you how. Document and record all meetings with them find out the state recording laws if it is one party consent don't let them know your doing it they are more likely to violate your rights if they don't know your recording them. Also don't trust what they say they are skilled liers and manipulators. They will act all nice to you one day and be nasty as all hell the next. There is also a state board on her with some important links to get started. Learn as much as you can as fast as you can. Knowledge is power.

[Dazeemay]

http://web.archive.org/web/200402151454 ... ite/guide/

The above link is a parent's guide to the system.
The below link is a parents right
http://forum.fightcps.com/viewtopic.php?t=1870

The below link is a summary of state laws on abuse and neglect
http://forum.fightcps.com/viewtopic.php?t=3507

The below link is about spanking laws in every state.
http://forum.fightcps.com/viewtopic.php?t=3993

This is what your state says;"
MONTANA

"Physical abuse" is defined as "substantial skin bruising, internal bleeding, substantial injury to skin, subdural hematoma, intentional burns, bone fractures, extreme pain, permanent or temporary disfigurement, impairment of
any bodily organ or function, or death if the injury or death is not accidental." Sec. 41-3-102.[Ci.] Parent or authorized agent of parent/guardian/master/teacher is justified to use force if reasonable and necessary to restrain or correct child. Sec. 45-3-107.[Cr.]





http://fightcps.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4088

[Frustrated]

Did you attend to the Court Hearing within 72 hours? You are supposed to attend to Court to get a hearing of the Judge to see whether where the child will be cared for. They need to set up a Hearing to determine where your child will be cared at (with relatives or foster care). Call the courthouse to find out if there was a hearing (TODAY) and you need to be there. (find out through either Family Court or Juvenile Courts). As for Criminal Charges, were you formally handed criminal papers from the Police? (ie: Charged for Child Abuse ?) If not, call the Courthouse to find out if you have a Court Hearing through Criminal Courts.

GET A LAWYER ASAP! CPS are known to lie and postpone hearings, WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE!!
Read CPS Manual in your State (being Montana), Read the Laws, and your Rights (The Consitution). Do not talk to your Worker, and do not sign Service Plan until you have conferred or consulted with your Attorney FIRST! Your Attorney will tell you what to do and how to fight all of this. You need all the EVIDENCE. Get Medical Records (examination of your kids from your Family Doctor), School Records, and School Counsellor's records, Emergency Hosp. Records, Dental and Immunization Shots, everything.....gather them up for your Attorney to defend yourself. Get Witnesses to state that you how often spank your child.

Check with Montana's spanking law. Sometimes they allow it with an open hand, but no weapons allowed, read the Law. and what Age. Read everything you can on these boards to protect your Rights. Read the front of Fight CPS. on what to do when CPS comes to your Door. Have everything go through your Attorney.

They will probably offer you to do Counselling, do the Anger Management Courses, or possibly Parenting Classes, or even worse make you do Drug Tests. These are Service Plan that they will offer you and make you sign.

Tell the Worker who you want the child to be cared for, tell them (relative's names). Under Relative Placement, they are supposed to place your child with a KNOWN Relative, not foster care.

Most of all, you were supposed to attend to a Court hearing (within 72 hours) because your child was removed from your Custody. Hurry, and call your Lawyer TODAY!

[billdean]

son.

[Frustrated]

Don't be fooled "what a friendly people CPS are", that is their tactic at first then lo' and behold, they will get really ugly and vicious. Stand guarded and do not sign until your Attorney says it is ok.

You are supposed to attend 72 hours hearing from the Judge to determine where your son will be cared for (with relatives or foster care).

Where is your son at right now? is it only one son you have, the 13 yrs old? Does he have behavioral problems? like ADD or ADHD, or O.D.D. Or does he have Special Needs? Is he a Special Needs Child? CPS loves those type of cases and would remove Special Needs at a high rate.

Listen to your Attorney, and your Attorney will straighten things out and your Attorney should be the one to talk to the Worker. You shouldn't be talking to them. They will try and push you to sign the Service Plan, which lasts up to 6 months (you won't get your son back until you finish the Services!) possibly up to 9 months. I don't want to scare you, but that's the standard for CPS to hold your Son between now to 6 months, and to 9 months if you did not finish the Services. It will be faster if you do it all in Court and do not sign the Service Plan, because it will make the case longer and painful.

CPS lies lots, and has a lot of tricks up their sleeves, at first they are oh so friendly, and the next week, you will be seeing totally the other side. Don't fall for it. Listen to your Attorney and do what he says "goes", not the CPS Worker.

Supervised Visits will be held at the CPS Center with watchful eyes behind famous mirrored window with them watching you with your son at every move. It is uncomfortable to do supervised visits at the center because sometimes you cannot do or say to your Son, it will be monitored.

It would be wise to keep a journal of everything, dates, times, location, and events, keep document proof and keep everything in writing so CPS cannot take it back. Get all the Records about your Son for your Attorney in your Defense for Court.
Ask him about 72 hours hearing to determine where they will care for your Son, that's important hearing because they could very well return the son to you. It happens rarely to other families, and if no one shows up, and CPS will opt for him to go into Foster Care System. Do you have any Relatives that can take care of him temporarily?

Who called you in? School ? or your Son ? or some body else? Did you ask your Attorney about Montana's Spanking Law if it is allowable?

[Gary Shaw]

billdean,

Carefully read the links Dazeemay posted to you. Learn as much as you can. Knowledge is power, these people can only be beaten using the Laws of Montana and the United States and/or the Montana Child Protection Services Manuals. The manuals (policy and procedures) show what they can do and what they can not do and give the legal precedent. Don't depend on your attorney, it is their job to defend you, but it is your job to become knowledgeable enough to at least know they are doing it right.

I would suggest you get a tape recorder (digital) and keep it with you at all times. Record ever conversation or meeting. If you can't do that at least get a composition book and immediately after every conversation or meeting write down what was said and by whom. This time line will become more important the longer they drag this on. If you have the facilities it is good to video them when they visit your home.

[Frustrated]

FYI, Montana is two party State, which means you must notify them that you are taping. But you can do it in your own home, just like those of Home Videos. Your own Home is your privacy right and you have the right to tape your own home and your own property. Just can't do it in CPS Office though according to this taping law.

Look at Taping Law here:

http://www.pimall.com/nais/n.tel.tape.law.html


You can tape your own home, your own property, just can't do it on a Government property or elsewhere and surely can't do it with CPS in their office, but you can tape it in your own home, with CPS in it. Your home is your private property.

I would do everything by the Attorney, I think that would be the best avenue is to go through everything by your Attorney.

[billdean]

ok

[Dazeemay]

You need to get ahead of them in defending yourself before your first hearing.

This is done by doing a Declaration of Facts and Objections and Corrections forms. These need to be filed at the court house at the Clerk of Courts office and if you don't have a lawyer as yet you can file them. If you get a lawyer then you make him/her file them.

Here is a link on what a Dec of Facts looks like.

http://www.fightcps.com/oldsite/legaldo ... ation.html

Do exactly as Linda instructs. CPS will not be expecting this. Would love to see the looks on their faces if you do this because I am sure no one has ever filed these at a first hearing.

You need to explain step by step how the spanking came about and why.

You will also need to get the cps petition so you can object to their lies. Here is the link to this form. http://www.fightcps.com/oldsite/legaldo ... ctions.txt

The reason you must do this right away is because cps and the court will have delay after delay and the months will drag on. Our para legal told us that cps gets to give their side first and they will keep amending the petition. Your side will not be heard for a long time and by that time your side is lost in the muddle of the court.

This is also for suing purposes because once the hearings are over with you cannot add anything else. This is for your protection.

In the law that Montana has it does not state anything about welts and you might want to make note of that in your Objections and Corrections form. State the law exactly as it is.

Did the skin break? If it did they might go on that pretty hard but, it still does not mention welts. Things like this are important when doing these forms.

Also I would state that your son is a typical teen who thinks the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

You are going to have a fight because your son is considered a "special needs child" and the state makes more money from these children.

If you need help with your forms Susan might be able to help you.
[email protected]

I come from the mining city in Montana

[billdean]

My attorney told me today that in Montana the hearing is 20 days from intake not 72 hours. They have all so charged me with child assault. I can see now there could be many charges dreamnt up in the next 17 days or so. he said we will be ready for them though.

[Gary Shaw]

billdean,

The 72 hour "Formal Intake Hearing" is a Federal Law and is supposed to be a requirement of the states for them to get funding from Title IV of the Social Security Act.

[Frustrated]

20 days for a Removal of your Child? Who says that the child is being taken care for in Foster Care? It is a requirement to determine where he will be cared for. Did you read CPS Manual for Montana, it will state how many hours they are supposed to file for Court Hearing just so that the Judge can determine where your son goes. 20 days seems too long for that. Like Gary indicated, they need to do this in order to apply for Fundings.

Here in Canada, it is 5 days to file for Plan of Care Petition to the Judge along with affavidits. 72 hours is the standard for most States, but it varies from 72 hours to a week. No more than that.

I never heard of 20 days Hearing, that's a first for me.

Were you formally handed with Papers from the Police for Criminal Charges of Child Assault? They are required to formally hand you the papers and bring you to the Police Station to be fingerprinted and photographed. It is one thing to say that you are looking to be charged with child abuse, and another thing is to hand you and charge you personally from the Police and the papers will be handed over to the D.A. for Court Date. They will tell you when the Court Date for you to appear.
Did you get any papers from anyone? CPS are known to say wild things but it does not become true. Sometimes they do this to see if you would give up information about the Case. It is called Fishing Expidition. Do not give them any Information, only to your Attorney. Surely do not sign Service Plan. Have your Attorney handle everything.

Usually by Police Standards, when they investigate and will charge within days, but it can be up to two weeks while they conclude their investigaton to the Case. They will gather all the Evidence and talk to your Son and photograph the marks on his backs, and get all the witnesses' statements, even your relatives. They will investigate anything. Check to see if you have any Criminal Background, and so forth, and give all the materails to the D.A. and the D.A. is the one who will determine whether you will be charged or not depending on the Evidence.
Find out more about Montana's Spanking Law, sometimes it helps.

For here in Canada, we have Spanking Law and it is legal. Just no marks, no weapons, and no strikes to the head, and only an open hand to the buttocks and that's it. For Ages 2 to 12 here in Canada. States varies from the other, even in California, they have certain law than those of Ohio where Ohio allows it.

[katgotsteve]

bill
when i was going through my case, i had the opportunity to sit through several hearing and listen to other people who had cases. one that might associate to your case is a man who's wife had left him when his kids were small, toddler age. he had a son and a daughter, of course the kids got in trouble. the son was older and he did his normal rebelious things, when the girl was 14 she began stealing, lieing and trying to stay out all night long. her father caught her stealing, so he spanked her with a belt. he did leave a mark on her butt, she called cops and he was arrested and charged with assualt that same night. she was removed and placed in foster care. the charges against him were not pursued against, becuase 1. he had no history of abuse, 2. spanking your child is not a crime. though the criminal charges are dropped, cps still pursued the case against him. he agreed to leave his daughter in foster care for a year becuase he was told that was best and that his daughter did not want to come home.
to me personally this was all wrong. what are children are being taught is that, if you dont like home, call cps and you can make a new one, dont like it, tell your worker and she will move you, dont like rules, that is ok, you will adventually end up in a home without them. this really sux by all means. this man's daughter wanted a mother in her life, being abandoned by your mother is alot for any child to take in and lets face it being an unhuman teenager is not easy either, but this department made it easy for this girl to get out. her father not knowing what to do, did not fight becuase he was told he was wrong, he was told he had no business raising a girl by himself even though he had done it for over a decade.
my advice to you is, dont agree to the terms they set forth, do not let them talk you into services. if you have no history with them, then that is a plus, if you have a history they will use that.
you are in a catch 22, do not admit guilt. anyone who is popped with a belt will welt up, you need to find out after 24 hours if there are marks. plus in order to pursue the criminal side, the da has to prove to 12 men and women that you had the intent to hurt this child and you were abusing this child, not just spanking them.

[Frustrated]

Here is Montana's Laws regarding Spanking:

(11) (a) "Physical injury" means death, permanent or temporary disfigurement, or impairment of any bodily organ or function. The term includes death, permanent or temporary disfigurement, and impairment of a bodily organ or function sustained as a result of excessive corporal punishment.
(b) The term does not include spanking of a child by a parent for disciplinary or behavior modification purposes.

Senate Bill 166
Introduced in the Montana State Legislature on January 10, 1997 by Sen. James Burnett, et al
Key sections below are in bold print.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL FOR AN ACT ENTITLED: "AN ACT REVISING THE PENALTY FOR CRIMINAL MISCHIEF INVOLVING VANDALISM TO INCLUDE PUBLIC SPANKING ON THE BARE BUTTOCKS IN CERTAIN CASES; PRESCRIBING HOW THE PENALTY IS TO BE ADMINISTERED; CLARIFYING THAT SPANKING OF A CHILD BY A PARENT FOR DISCIPLINARY OR BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION PURPOSES DOES NOT CONSTITUTE PHYSICAL INJURY OR SEXUAL ABUSE IN DETERMINING CHILD ABUSE; ALLOWING TRANSFER TO CRIMINAL COURT OF PROSECUTION OF A YOUTH 12 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER WHO COMMITS CRIMINAL MISCHIEF INVOLVING VANDALISM; AND AMENDING SECTIONS 41-3-102, 41-5-206, AND 45-6-101,

http://www.nospank.net/mtsb166.htm

[billdean]

tomorrow they asked if i would like to visit with my son. Talk with my attorney he said by all mean go see him. Any advise? I will be in CPS office and will be supervised.

[katgotsteve]

there is no right or wrong way to act towards your son. i do know you cant talk to him about the incident. you can ask him how he is doing, who he is living with and stuff like that. if he begins to talk about the subject, just let him talk, try not to stop him or interrupt him. you often find out more from the kids than the adults around. you may wish to talk to the caseworker about the case after your visit. ask about the 72 hour detention hearing, ask about the spanking law, ask about the policy towards corporal punishment in their office. all this is just informational, but it keeps a caseworker on her toes. by you asking, it means you are researching which means they have to dot i's and cross t's. the more informed you act the more nervous they become, but by no means should you be hostile or even seem hostile. they use this against you.

[Dazeemay]

Never show anger when in their presence or building. Even if something comes up in your conversations that makes you upset smile through your teeth and hold the anger in.

They will be watching you and reporting anything or lie about anything they can. You may have a good visit with your son but, they might say your son was traumatized by your visit. Keep a record of this visit and everything you and your son discussed.

Your son will be on a "honeymoon" of sorts. Sometimes they make sure the child is over indulged with nice things or they promise them the moon which even distances the child more from his or her parent/s.

Be prepared if he says the foster parents are going to take him some place special or give him some certain new tech toy.

We will all be thinking of you tomorrow.

[Frustrated]

Bring a Legal Pad that is covered in a Binder where they cannot see inside of your folder. Bring that with you, sometimes it makes the Caseworker nervous if you bring a legal pad and a pen to write down about the visits, or anything else. Write down what the caseworker said, and where the visit occured, and what happened in these visits. Put down dates, time, location, caseworker's name and agency address. Request her business card so you can keep this for your files, on the business card will state what the caseworker is licensed with such as BSW, RSW, or whatever. or just merely "intake worker" or "case worker" or "child protection worker" which means they are not licensed nor registered with the Social Worker's Association Board.

Since the Taping Laws shows that you cannot tape in their office, being two party state, so request after the visit for their casenotes. They will photocopy case notes and give them to you. There was one family that was told by CPS Supervisor that he would be willing to give the family the case notes about the visitations. Put the Casenotes into your binder. This way they know you are on top of things and are in great concern and looking out for the best interests of your Son.

Yes, most of all, keep a smile, and never show anger or upset. They will keep a look out for your emotions. and Dress with clothes that are clean. They look at facial expressions, clothes and the persons' behavior or manners toward the child. They DO write everything in their notes. So request their casenotes while your son is out of the visitation room. If she said no, then you ask for her Supervisor to come in the room saying that you have the right to the casenotes. If the Supervisor refuses, then you tell your Attorney that you were denied your rights. There is nothing wrong with requesting casenotes, unless they are looking to lie in their reports and fabricating the case against you. Just remain calm and be polite.

I am keeping prayers for you and for your Son.

[billdean]

My

[Frustrated]

Have your Attorney to (request) court order release of ALL CPS Files including casenotes, transcripts, videos including police interviews and videos from the Judge/Court, to you. Once CPS release the files to you, your Attorney will weed through all the lies and correct them. Be prepared of all the lies that CPS puts into the reports. There will be plenty of lies.

Did your Attorney mention any other Montana's Spanking Law? would have used the above to get the case dropped or dismissed.That would be easier said than done, huh?
Too bad indeed. But there are loopholes that your Attorney can get to get you out of the mess that CPS puts you under.

[yellernboyz]

HOW DO YOU GET A COPY OF YOUR CPS FILE? MY ATT. SAID SHE WOULD HAVE TO FILE INTERROGARTORIES. WHAT IS THAT? SHE SAID IF THERE WAS NO CRIMINAL CASE YOU CAN'T GET YOUR RECORDS IS THIS TRUE?

[Frustrated]

There are about three ways to get CPS Files but most cases, you can't get your Records because CPS are working so hard to keep them private and confidential claiming it is best interests to protect the child by concealing his or her identity from its files.

Three ways to get your CPS Files:

1. Get request to have it court ordered by the Judge/Court. Have your Attorney request them court ordered then the Judge will court order the CPS to release its files. It all depends on each case. Severe cases, most likely the Judges won't get it court ordered in order to protect the identity of the child. (best interests)

2. Write a letter to the Director of Social Services, NOT CPS. Write a letter claiming FOI, Freedom of Information Act. Sometimes this one works, sometimes it doesn't. Most cases it does not work.

3. Write a Letter directly to CPS Worker, using either email or registered letter with back up copy. I have a sample of this letter and it works. I am still waiting for the Worker to release the files to me. (still waiting)

There is a fourth way, that goes with number 3. You can request to go into CPS Office and take a look at the files and they will photocopy certain files but most of them will be blacked out. This one is much easier because they don't want all the confidential files "lost" in the mail. Best to offer the Worker that you will come in one day in their office and look at their files, she will show you some of it, not all of it. And you can request the Worker to photocopy "approved" files to you right in the office free of charge.

[Frustrated]

Sample letter on how to obtain your CPS Files:

You need to get their Email address to insert this letter and attach one attachement from Toronto’s sample etc…
You will get a guaranteed reply and you will have their answer in writing this time.


Insert Date
Your Name
Address



Your CPS Agency name
Address


Dear Ms. (Your CPS Worker):

RE: FILE DISCLOSURE (make sure it is bolded)

Upon paying this matter further consideration, my partner and I have come to the conclusion that we have the right to full and frank disclosure of all evidence obtained by your agency during the course of your investigation. To date this has not been provided by (Your CPS Agency name).

I would like to respectfully request full disclosure from the (CPS Agency name), further I would ask that our family file be copied and made available for pick up at your office at no expense to my family.

There is a large volume of materials to review and we require the opportunity to carefully comb this material at our leisure in the privacy of our home. It would be a waste of taxpayer’s money to tie up Society workers for many hours to supervise while we review our file. My above mentioned request should be a very simple and swift one for the society to provide me a response to.

The Children’s Aid Society of Toronto readily makes available to their clients, a copy of their family’s file at no cost to the family. Please see the attached letter from the Toronto CAS clearly stating that Children’s Aid Societies view this as a reasonable request to grant their clients. I certainly feel that the (Your CPS Agency name) should be able to provide me with this information in a timely fashion.

I do not believe it is at all reasonable or beneficial to the best interests of my children for your agency to force me into unnecessary and costly court action to obtain information about my children.

I look forward to receiving your written reply at your earliest possible convenience.


Sincerely,

Your Name

[Momoffor]

Most places wont release a case file until after the investigation is completed and then will release all of the files they used in the investigation.