I guess this is the spot

[scarfyrre]

I've been coming here for a while, now, and I have gotten quite a bit of good advice. I hope I was able to give back to the new parents just as well.

But.

I'm honestly getting tired of immature comments being made about fellow members. I thought we were in this fight together. I didn't realize if a poster didn't agree with other posters, then suddenly the Nazi remarks come out.

We all have different experiences to share with the new parents, and all ideas need to be put out there. If poster A doesn't agree with poster B, how about being polite about it and stop the junior high bickering?

I know if I was brand new in the CPS hell, I would wonder what in the heck I've done if I keep hearing Nazi comments and the word goon all the time. If one doesn't agree with another poster, then politely say so. The name calling doesn't help the parents involved, nor does it make us look good. If I were a politician or judge, came here to see what was up, saw an amazing amount of minor bickering between members, constant Nazi comments, and grade school name calling, I'd think we were a bunch of idiots.

This is, of course, my opinion, but since our fight is constant, why make it harder by fighting amongst ourselves? If you disagree with a poster, say so politely or ignore it. Honestly, how would you feel as a terrified new parent to see that sort of thing? I know I'd run, since there are many sites I found that spoke exactly like that and I refused to support them.

We're only going to win by showing unity and by being mature. Calling posters you disagree with Nazis, or insinuating such, sure as heck won't help. And constant name-calling of the 'enemy' doesn't do much either. We have to be smarter than CPS, and such behavior just makes all of us sound like spoiled 1st graders.

My opinion, call me what you will, but I felt I needed to say it. It's become painful to come here as a veteran, so I can't even imagine how a newbie parent feels. CPS sucks, we get it, find a new term. There's disagreement in the posts, fine, but lose the bitterness. It's not helping our cause.

I left two Yahoo groups because I suddenly became a target only because my husband is a lawyer. This certain poster, who has been here, went absolutely batty on me calling me rich, a society lady who lunches, with a built-in attorney, so no wonder my son was home. That person is still one of the most awful people I've come across, and because of him I left that board and ceased being helped and helping. Even in the post I made when I tried to calm him down by explaining my hubby was a health-care lawyer, we're in debt to our eyeballs, and I have never 'done lunch', the attacks continued. Pages and pages of vile spewing hatred at me, a fellow sufferer, and not one person even tried to stop him.

I don't want that to happen here.

[Dazeemay]

I am with you.

There are times I have felt like not coming back to the board, but the committment I made to myself to help other parents drives me back.

[Bob_Lynn]

And constant name-calling of the 'enemy' doesn't do much either.

While I agree with most of what you post, I have a hard time not name-calling the "enemy" when the "enemy" destroys families and steals their children for a living and puts them in an environment that's extremely dangerous if not deadly and calls it "in their best interest".

There's disagreement in the posts, fine, but lose the bitterness. It's not helping our cause.

It may not help the cause but we're only human and I don't think you want to tell those who lost their children forever or whose children and families were damaged for life to "lose the bitterness".

You're partly right with what you're trying to say but there's no way the bitterness will ever go away for many of us. And personally, I think we'll have lost our humanity if it did, not to mention we may also lose our will to fight (which is even more critical).

[Dan Sullivan]

And constant name-calling of the 'enemy' doesn't do much either.

While I agree with most of what you post, I have a hard time not name-calling the "enemy" when the "enemy" destroys families and steals their children for a living and puts them in an environment that's extremely dangerous if not deadly and calls it "in their best interest".

You deleted scarfyrre's previous sentence and changed the subject.

The previous sentence was "Calling posters you disagree with Nazis, or insinuating such, sure as heck won't help."

She was referring to posts such as the one recently made to me calling CPS "your allies."

Or your post to me claiming that my opinion "helps the criminals" because I said I believed info on CPS workers like names, email addresses and phone numbers shouldn't be posted on this website.

[Bob_Lynn]

I didn't delete anything or change the subject, I replied to 2 specific points. I do have the right to respond (or not) to a post as I see fit and not as you would like, right?

[scarfyrre]

I don't think you got what I was saying, Bob.

I AM one of those families who's children were damaged for life by CPS, remember? My son sleeps with his light on and the door open, when before it was dark and door closed.

I have to stand outside the half-bathroom while he pottys because being five feet away isn't close enough.

He ran and hid in the closet when someone selling magazines knocked on our door.

That's just three things that our time with DFCS caused. I won't mention the insomnia, lack of appetite, nightmares, Xanax prescription, the hysterical crying...all this just my husband and I.

So please don't tell me about being bitter and not feeling entitled.

I'm pissed. You're pissed. We're all pissed, but as I was trying to say, hijacking a parent's plea for help with arguments between ourselves over petty things, calling CPS names, and insinuating Nazi-ness is no helpful. If we're going to help people, I think there's a bit of professionalism that needs to be projected while we help other parents new to this. If you or anyone else disagrees with an opinion, that's your right, but to hijack threads to call each other names is not what the parents want to see. There is a polite way to disagree, using things in context, and if you or anyone else feels the need to call me or my cat a Nazi, do it in PMs.

We've already had one poster delete and leave, and I can only guess why, but if you are swearing to help other parents yet run them off with your actions to fellow advice posters, I doubt you will do much good.

We all have different experiences and different tactics. Every state is different, so what works in Kansas won't work in New York. We are, though, working together, and the constant bickering, name calling, and childish phrases for CPS will not help the cause.

And please, remember that I am one of those parents who lost their child for five months. My son was beaten with a belt by the foster mother because he was white. He now knows what oral sex is because he was asked for it, yet he only knew that babies were in Mommy's tummy beforehand. So do NOT tell me about bitter, Bob. I'm as angry and bitter as the next victim, but I don't call you or anyone else names, and if I need to refer to CPS, I will use that term and not some childish name. I prefer to be mature, professional, and supportive with the parents, but if things don't chill, we're going to lose those that need our help the most.

What's more important? Constant bitterness and hijacking of threads to make petty points? Or helping someone's babies come home in a professional and mature manner?

And if the parent needs to vent, then we're to be their shoulder. I'm about to train to be an advocate as soon as my case is 100% closed, and I will always maintain a dignified and professional manner. Name calling just brings us down to CPS' level, and I do not want to be that low. If the parents wants to scream and vent, I will hold their hand until they are feeling a bit better.

I just don't want to run off more families that need you, Dan, Dazeemay, and the others with valuable information. We don't have to like each other (although I haven't a problem with anyone, you all seem rather nifty ), but can we grit our teeth and pretend for other's sake?

[Bob_Lynn]

No Scar, I got what you're saying perfectly well. If you read my reply thoroughly, you would have noted I agreed with you for the most part. Where I didn't agree was how we all express our anger. You're asking us to curtail our bitterness and I'm telling you that's not possible for many of us. Maybe you're a better person than I am but I am incredibly angry and what I show in some of my posts is only the tip of the iceberg in how I really feel.

I didn't forget for one minute that you and your family are damaged for life, most of us are here because we're damaged. If you want to suppress it, that's your perogative, I choose to express it at times and trust me, like I said, when I slip a few names here and there, I'm being kind. You don't want to hear what I have to say in private. I don't agree that expressing our anger brings us down to CPS level, that's apples and oranges.

I've written posts here and in other forums that I regret writing and I've even deleted posts from the LIFE forum site after re-thinking the issue and receiving some e-mails criticizing my posts.

Perhaps I take out my anger at the wrong people at times and perhaps not. I'm human and every human acts and reacts in their own way, c'es la vie. In my case, it doesn't mean for one minute that I'm trying to sidetrack or derail the cause I'm working for on a daily basis.

That said, I'll keep it down to a roar if and when I can.

[Dan Sullivan]

I don't think you got what I was saying, Bob.

I think Bob got exactly what you were saying.

It's just that he chose to ignore the real topics of the sentences he responded to... and he tried to make it appear you were talking about something else.

Your true comments evidently hit too close.

[mousey]

Scarfyrre is right. It is totally wrong to call someone names, no matter how angry you are. The things our government is doing to destroy our country and families makes me very angry, but that is where the anger should be directed, not at individuals who post.

[good dad]

Well said scarfyrre

[Greegor]

A defective court pleading however is
better than no pleading, or suffering through
four public defenders who do the Judas thing
and don't file any court pleadings worth
a darn. They always file to raise their fee cap though!

[scarfyrre]

We've all been hurt by CPS. That is why we are here. When I think of the woman they put my child with who beat him with a belt because he was white, I am entitled to my anger just as you are entitled to yours. That's not the issue, though.

I asked everyone to chill on the petty bickering only because when a parent comes here for help, and you and Bob and the others who are not fans of Dan start bickering with him, they leave and don't get the help that they need.

We all have different ideas and different views, just as each of our various states have various laws. I wasn't aware of it at the time, but I was doing what Dan suggests most of the time: get the kids home ASAP, then worry about the other stuff.

I felt powerless like each of you. I want to hurt those that hurt my family, but when another parent comes to me with advice, I give that advice in a clam, professional manner. If you or Dan or Bob or Dazeemay disagree and offer different advice, that's perfectly fine. If I disagree with any of you, I will not hijack a parent's thread to bitch at any of you. That's what PMs are for.

My anger, your anger, or anyone else's anger is not important to that parent asking us for help. Getting that parent information is what's important, at least to me, and hijacking threads to continue personal arguments is becoming an issue. I know of a few parents in need that left this board in disgust, and I seriously worry about the help they are no longer receiving.

When they took my baby, my goal was to get him back no matter what. I fought CPS on many things, but I also did what was asked because right now there isn't a choice. There isn't a state that CPS has someone to call them on for not following rights of parents, and I believe every group in the country is trying to fix that, but in the mean time the first goal is to get the kids home. Obviously, we don't have to bend over and take it, but if I have to allow the bastards in my home for a visit even though legally I don't have to, I will allow them inside to get my son home.

I hate to say this, because I happen to believe in our rights very much in every aspect of being an American, but I have read some things by some advocates that I have felt was just digging in heels and endangering the child just to win a minor point. As far as CPS is concerned, we have no rights, and until we can fix that we have to deal with it as best as we can. I know the whole time I'm smiling at the bastards and arranging evals and visits, I'm gathering evidence against them. I gave them what they wanted to get what I wanted yet knowing the whole time I would get my revenge.

Blah, blah, blah. I know, I'm not getting what I want to say in 3,000 words or less. It's hard to put nuances in type. Sigh.

Long story short, I'm just asking to put personal differences aside, save the name calling and arguing to PMs, and stop hijacking threads of those begging for help. Realize every single person on this board has a right to be angry. Realize every single person on this board has lost a child, either forever or just a night, to CPS. Your anger is not any more special than mine, it's just different.

But when we start running those that come here for help away because Dan used a word you didn't like, or Bob said 'poo' instead of 'boo', then Linda and gooddad have lost the reason they started this board. It's not for us to argue between ourselves, but to help each other fight this monster that is stealing our children.

That's why I'm asking for everyone to chill out. You don't agree with the way Dan does things, fine, but if you want to call him an a**hole, do it in PMs. Politely disagree (and this is for EVERYONE) in threads, or say 'Well, I did it this way and it worked,' but remember when we are asked for help, the parent wants help. They don't want to watch their plea turn into a bash-fest.

As far as what I had to do to get my kid home, that is what worked for me. I stomped and yelled just like the next person, but to CPS I was a pleasant suburban mom. I knew their policy, and when they tried to screw us on it, I called them on their error and it was changed. I followed their rules to an extent because I knew once my baby was home with me and safe, then I could go to town on them. It worked, my case is closed, no deprivation found, and we have lawyers in the wings to sue the counselor, her clinic, CPS, and the state. The revenge will take time, but knowing when to fight and when to bend over helped me get my baby out of that racist wench's house. He's upstairs, safe and asleep in his own bed, and that is all I want for the other parents who have been falsely targeted by CPS. I think if everyone else here wants that, too, then perhaps the fighting between ourselves could stop.

I hope so. I've learned a lot from you all, and I keep learning every day, and I'd hate to have to leave because of how we treat each other. Don't we get enough from CPS?

(obviously we all need to vent sometime, but I will start my personal vent thread. I just think it bad form to hijack someone's thread, who begging for help, to call me a poopy-head <shrug>)

[Dan Sullivan]

I wasn't aware of it at the time, but I was doing what Dan suggests most of the time: get the kids home ASAP, then worry about the other stuff.

<<<snip>>>

As far as what I had to do to get my kid home, that is what worked for me.

<<<snip>>>

It worked, my case is closed, no deprivation found, and we have lawyers in the wings to sue the counselor, her clinic, CPS, and the state.

I love a happy ending.

If you didn't make a post under Happy Endings, do it!

Best, Dan

[ericb]

scarfyrre,
I promise that I will not resort to calling you a poopy-head, at least, and until, you deserve such a title. That said, we were both once an anguished parent who had had their child ripped from them and we both found this site. Good for us and good for the parent who is just now starting to go through what you and I know to be a living, walking, breathing, hell on Earth. I was lucky in one sense. Having worked in EMS for so long I was aware of CPS and I had seen many a child removed from a family with what I considered to be minor problems. Ten years on the job, a veteran of the first Gulf War in which I personally witnessed, and was a party to, the ugliness that is war, and I see a 24 year old newly hired Social Worker from some middle class suburb walk into a ghetto apartment and automatically make assumptions. I was safe with that scenario because it did not include me or my family. All that changed on June 22, 2005 and my rose colored glasses were forcefully removed. While I try not to hi-jack a thread of a parent asking for help. Nor will I sit silently by and allow the Dan Sullivans of this world to impart to these parents advice that I, personally, deem counterproductive. Like you, I essentially did what Dan suggests in the first few days after my daughter's abduction. What choice did we as parents have? Society has taught us to do this or not do that and to do what the courts tell you to do. I now see that capitulating to CPS demands, in light of the abuse that my daughter was suffering, was a mistake that I shall regret for eternity. I was the proverbial sheep, until that first court date when I saw for myself just how skewed this system had become. I made a personal decision, right then and there, that I would work to see this injustice righted. From then on I fought them EVERY step of the way. I too used the system against itself and my daughter was returned to us. Others are not so lucky. I see these poor non-english speaking families every time I go to court. Inevitebly, I am asked if I am a lawyer and if I can help them. All because I am white and I am wearing a suit and tie. They do not posses the life experience to challenge the system to the extent that I did. Laws are written by lawyers and they always leave themselves an out. Finding and exploiting those holes has served me well in this endeavor. My goal is that every parent sucked into this system has at least a basic understanding that it is a Constitutionally Guarunteed right to challenge the accusations leveled against you. Look at O.J. Simpson, his lawyers callenged EVERYTHING. As was his right under the law. It is your right too!!! Rather than bowing down to this system and then standing up to it once you have your kids back, parents need to stand their ground from the beginning. How else are we to change this system? Does your State Representative or Senator agree with you. Have you made that known to them? Imagine if every parent dragged into their first "Dispositional Hearing" stood up in the court room and demanded to be judged by a jury of their peers. We could, effectively, grind to a halt the illegal proceedings of every Family Court in the country! That is called dissent, and it is authorized by the Constitution of the United States.
I'm beginning to ramble so I'll cut it short. I believe that Dan Sullivan is a danger to parents on this board and I will challenge him when I see fit.

[Dan Sullivan]

<<<snip>>>
Nor will I sit silently by and allow the Dan Sullivans of this world to impart to these parents advice that I, personally, deem counterproductive.

<<<snip>>>

I believe that Dan Sullivan is a danger to parents on this board and I will challenge him when I see fit.

I look forward to your challenges, Eric.

[ericb]

Your "looking forward" to my challenges shows just how sick a person you really are, Dan. Is this the thrill that you seek by posting here? To "look forward" to defending yourself from my challenges? Wow, and I assumed you were here just to help to "get the children back home". You've shown your real spots, find another playground, you CPS hack.

[scarfyrre]

I don't ask that we stop having opinions, I just ask that we stop hijacking threads to yell, fuss, call names, and rudely disagree. Dan, Bob, you, and many others have done this, and although I appreciate your passion, it doesn't help the terrified parent.

The politicians in my state are hyper aware of what's going on, but they choose to ignore it. Rachel Bortz and her family started a very vocal argument when their child was removed, and I'm hoping the momentum hasn't stopped since he was sent back home (yay!). I'm about to start official training to become an advocate, and my husband and I are quite ready for the backlash that will cause. I've already spoken to a candidate for Lt. Gov who is immersed in CPS and wants change.

I'm not quite sure what Dan has done to warrant such anger. The occaisional smart comment, but I honestly don't see why he deserves such violence. I did stand up for my rights, but I also wanted my son out of that racist home where that bitch beat him harder because he was white. I wanted him out of that home that left porn lying around. I wanted him out of that home where another poor child asked my son for oral sex.

Sometimes I feel like I sold my son out. CPS offered, in an off-hand way, to return my son if I gave them my husband. I refused to be divided, they refused to return my child. I learned my rights within the law as the system is run now, and I fought them on those violations, but I also did what was asked to get my son home.

I was always polite so they couldn't say I was hysterical. I always did as they asked, within reason, so they could not say I did not comply. I was at every visit, which took an hour to get to, and I continued to be his mother with the CW by asked about school, homework, his health. I did not dig in my heels for rights or rules I knew I could not win at the present time.

I will, though, be right up front on the Georgia line fighting to get those bastards to follow our constitutional rights. I will be there to answer the phone when a parent calls that DFCS is at their door and what should they do. But right now, until there is an actual law office that CPS has to answer to, I will tell that parent to get that eval if it gets the child home more quickly. I will also tell them to go to their own doc, as we did, so the judge can see both.

Am I conveying this clearly? I'm so tired, and I tend to more stupid when I'm tired. In a nutshell:

Right now, as the laws stand today and as there is no higher entity that CPS is afraid of, we have to follow their rules. Those rules being what is in the state statutes and CPS' own policy books. I feel we can dig our heels in if they try to break their own rules, otherwise we need to remember the child needs to be home and we need to do what we can to get that child there.

I'm not saying to allow CPS to walk all over us, just to understand that sometimes we do what we have to do to get what we want.

We can fix this if we fight fairly and safely. We can, but fighting among ourselves won't help. You don't care for Dan, ok, your right not to, but please stop calling him names in threads that parents are crying for help. That's all I'm asking. If you want to call him a poopy-head, let's keep it to PMs. Please?

I want CPS to go down as much as you, Bob, Dazeemay, Dan, and anyone else on this board. I just ask that all of us calm down with each other and think of the parent. If you disagree, do it politely, but I can't take anymore tummy aches thinking of someone that left because we were being petty.

[mousey]

The biggest threat on the boards is not differences in opinions but name calling which is uncalled for. It doesn't resolve any problems.

[mousey]

Just an observation: One of the biggest problems with CPS is piety.
Most of those who work for CPS, at least around here, get involved mainly with those who are receiving public assistance, food stamps etc. It's a better than thou attitude. The CPS workers are better off financially than those they target who are mostly poor and struggling.
People who live out in the hicks where I do, live here because they want to and love it. Most people here struggle and most people who are working are barely getting by. What happens is people in the cities sell their homes for hundreds of thousands and come here and buy a house for $20,000. I have a friend who lives with no electricity and basically lives off the land. These people come in and try to clean up the town. Tell him he will be suied if he doesn't clean up his junk.What they don't understand is that is how he makes his living. He tears down the junk and sells it.
CPS workers are like that, they want every one to live up to standards that they can't possibly achieve financially.In other words, people around here are accused of abuse basically because they are poor.
It's a better than thou attitude and an attack on the poor. Most of those they attack have little or no access to legal help. CPS does not go after affluent people, at least not around here.

[Dan Sullivan]

I'm not quite sure what Dan has done to warrant such anger. The occaisional smart comment, but I honestly don't see why he deserves such violence.

<<<snip>>>

You don't care for Dan, ok, your right not to, but please stop calling him names in threads that parents are crying for help. That's all I'm asking. If you want to call him a poopy-head, let's keep it to PMs. Please?

Well said.

Best, Dan

[ericb]

scarfyrre,
I sincerely believe that parents should have all the information available to them to make well informed decisions regarding their children and how to get them back from this illegal operation. Dan and I have differing opinions on how that is to be done. Fine. I have found Dan's postings to be dangerous to the welfare of my child and I will alert other parents of my concerns in following Dan's advice which I believe is a path of "cooperate with CPS and you will get your children back", regardless of whether the charges are true. Here is where I take issue. He has, in my opinion, offered no constructive advice on how to FIGHTCPS. In following Dan's advice you may eventually get your kid's back. But, to be fair, you will have also allowed this skewed system to force you to jump through hoops that I personally deem unneccessary, immoral, and illegal. Doing it Dan's way keeps the dollars flowing into the system. Is that what we are advocating here? If he were to just come clean and state his connection to CPS rather than the vague description that he offers, I would be more inclined to respect his point of view. So far he has failed to do so. Why? Because if he is truly a CPS insider and he began advocating dissent, and it caught on and the laws were changed, he'd be out of a job. Newcomers to this board should be made aware that many of us decrie the advice of Mr. Sullivan, and, in fact, we deem his advice to be dangerous to their children. I stand by this and will continue to offer a different course of action to newcomers.

[mushiesmom]

Why does any one persons advice have to be right?? Maybe if people took all the advice offered, weighed their options and made a decision for themselves on what would work best for them and their particular case things would be much better. But attacking each person because of their opinions is terribly juvenile. So why not just leave it alone? Everyone here seems to have their "area of expertise" if you will. Dan knows what has worked for him in the past, Dazee has obviously done the research, Bob has his LIFE site, and the list goes on. So instead of posting back and forth about how wrong each feels the other is, let the other adults here decide for themselves whom they choose to listen to. Sometimes abit of input from everyone helps more than just taking the advice of one person. This is why when having major surgery you usually get more than one opinion and/ or have a team of doctors working together for the best possible solution. And NO ONE is right all the time, unless someone forgot to let the rest of us know that GOD himself posts here.

[Dan Sullivan]

unless someone forgot to let the rest of us know that GOD himself posts here.

Alright.

You got Me.

I wasn't gonna tell anyone, but...

It's Me.

You know I can't tell a lie.

And I'll tell you a few other things... Bob's going to hell.

Eric, too.

A few others I haven't made up My mind about, but you better be careful.

You think I don't know who didn't go to church on Easter???

Or Christmas???

I've got a list!

My Hebrew friends and relatives, and the people from the other religions... you've got a pass to the big H from Me.

But you've got to be good, and DON'T abuse the privilege!

Or I'll get some of the Jehovah's to knock on your door night and day.

So anyway, make believe you don't know... and we'll leave well enough alone.

Mums the word!

Best, You-Know-Who

[Dan Sullivan]

scarfyrre,
I sincerely believe that parents should have all the information available to them to make well informed decisions regarding their children and how to get them back from this illegal operation.

Sounds good.

And the parents should know which advice has been the most successful in getting children back from foster care.

Dan and I have differing opinions on how that is to be done. Fine. I have found Dan's postings to be dangerous to the welfare of my child

Your child?

I don't even know who you are.

and I will alert other parents of my concerns in following Dan's advice which I believe is a path of "cooperate with CPS and you will get your children back", regardless of whether the charges are true. Here is where I take issue. He has, in my opinion, offered no constructive advice on how to FIGHTCPS. In following Dan's advice you may eventually get your kid's back. But, to be fair, you will have also allowed this skewed system to force you to jump through hoops that I personally deem unneccessary, immoral, and illegal.

Personally deem???

So this isn't something you know for a fact, it's just something you feel.

Doing it Dan's way keeps the dollars flowing into the system.

No, it doesn't.

Is that what we are advocating here?

I'm not advocating that.

If he were to just come clean and state his connection to CPS rather than the vague description that he offers, I would be more inclined to respect his point of view.

I have no connection to CPS.

NONE!!!

So far he has failed to do so.

That's not true!

Have you checked my profile?

You need some serious help, Eric.

Why?

Because you don't know what you're talking about!!!

I've posted numerous times that I'm a family advisor, I don't work for CPS, and I haven't made a single penny from helping people fight CPS!

Because if he is truly a CPS insider and he began advocating dissent, and it caught on and the laws were changed, he'd be out of a job.

I'm not a CPS insider so that's ridiculous.

Newcomers to this board should be made aware that many of us decrie the advice of Mr. Sullivan, and, in fact, we deem his advice to be dangerous to their children.

Decrie?

That's not a word.

Do you mean decree?

Are you claiming what you say has the force of law... the judgement of a court?

I stand by this and will continue to offer a different course of action to newcomers.

And how many children, from families other than your own, have gone home from foster care because of your recommended course of action, Eric?

[scarfyrre]

Some people think fighting CPS at every turn BEFORE the kids are home is the way to go, and others feel it would be safer to get them home THEN tell CPS to stuff their 'services.'

Personally, I wanted my baby home before I told CPS to f-off and risk more harm. I'd already been 'punished' by them taking away visits just because I called them on their visitation policy. I sure as hell wasn't about to risk anything else until the ball (child) was back in my court.

You disagree with Dan, he disagrees with you, that's life, but no parent here is forced to follow anyone's advice. Thinking Dan has put many families as risk because he types sometime on a message board gives him too much credit (sorry, Dan). Guess what, it's a free country with freedom of speech and ideas, and as long as the mods have no problem with what Dan or anyone else puts on the boards, you all need to get over it.

As mushiesmom said, each parent will choose what is best for them. All we can offer is advice and knowledge based on our experiences, but to hijack thread after thread with juvenile posts belittling each other is on the far side of nuts.

We are here for answers, support, and advice. I'm tired of the same old arguments between the same people. How about instead of calling Dan a facist pig, you just say, "I strongly disagree and here's why..."? That way we stop scaring off the parents still in shock of the first knock.

And for heaven's sake, can we kill the quote button? :p