CAPTA UnConstitutional?

[gideonmacleish]

I wanted to post a topic for discussion among our regular posters. I have some new research that leads me to believe that CAPTA may, in fact, be unConstitutional. A document found on the HSLDA website at the following address:

http://www.hslda.org/research/docs/200404020.asp

states that the SCOTUS decision "South Dakota vs. Dole" holds that federal funding cannot be withheld if it requires violating some other provision of the Constitution. Because CAPTA withholds funds for, among other things, failing to allow anonymous reporting (in violation of the sixth amendment right to confront witnesses against us), and requiring mandatory reporting (in violation of the fourth amendment's implied right to privacy as repeatedly expressed in Supreme Court decisions, notably Roe vs. Wade), I believe we need to explore whether CAPTA is even Constitutional.

Let me first make it clear I would like a civil discussion. Name calling, and personal attacks on other posters will lead to my asking admin to remove the responses in question. I am asking this question and others to explore how best to proceed against CPS as an activist, and while others may have different (equally valid) approaches, those approaches do not negate my own.

[Bob_Lynn]

The Illinois Supreme Court ruled that granting termination of parental rights strictly on the basis of ASFA's provision regarding that children are in state custody for 15 of 22 months is unconstitutional. The Nebraska Supreme Court also overturned a TPR on the same basis but did not declare it unconstitutional. See
http://www.life-vs-cps.com/index_files/Page353.htm for the actual opinions.

[Greegor]

I honestly thought there was a Federal court ruling that
the 15/22 rule is unconstitutional also.
After getting threatened with TPR over and over
and having them ignore all requests to repair
a bad service plan, we sort of welcomed the TPR
process. One thing that we found that might help
others facing TPR is that we had asked them many
times for the required Family "Active Participation in
the FORMATION of the Services Plan". This is
a prerequisite before even HOLDING a TPR hearing
here in Iowa, and even after we pointed that out
they STILL proceded with the hearing process.
We had asked for that Active Participation in the
FORMATION of the Services Plan in order to
try to get the BAD Services Plan repaired.
Without knowing it at the time, these requests
in court pleadings preserve the issue for appeal.

[Greegor]

Gideon:
I've seen MANY aspects of the Child Protection INDUSTRY
as it is practiced that are obviously unconstitutional, but
this is not an angle I've seen before. Is this being discussed anywhere else?
Who else do you have working with you on this? Is HSLDA going after it?

Would you create a boiler plate court pleading for
families to use as a basis for their own law suits?
(Chapter 42 Section 1983 and 1985, ala SUECPS?)

Would this be a huge national class action suit?
http://www.constitutionalconcepts.org/lawsuit.htm

Something initiated by American Family Rights Association
or what?

My favorite is the boilerplate basis ala SUECPS.
But then I am biased because mine is one of those
families who has used it as a basis.
If I were to add this idea to our CIVIL RIGHTS suit,
how could that possibly negate your efforts?

Greg S. Hanson, Cedar Rapids Iowa
[email protected]

gideonmacleish Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: CAPTA UnConstitutional?
I wanted to post a topic for discussion among our regular posters. I have some new research
that leads me to believe that CAPTA may, in fact, be unConstitutional. A document found
on the HSLDA website at the following address:
http://www.hslda.org/research/docs/200404020.asp

states that the SCOTUS decision "South Dakota vs. Dole" holds that federal funding
cannot be withheld if it requires violating some other provision of the Constitution.
Because CAPTA withholds funds for, among other things, failing to allow anonymous
reporting (in violation of the sixth amendment right to confront witnesses against us),
and requiring mandatory reporting (in violation of the fourth amendment's implied
right to privacy as repeatedly expressed in Supreme Court decisions, notably Roe
vs. Wade), I believe we need to explore whether CAPTA is even Constitutional.

Let me first make it clear I would like a civil discussion. Name calling, and personal
attacks on other posters will lead to my asking admin to remove the responses in
question. I am asking this question and others to explore how best to proceed
against CPS as an activist, and while others may have different (equally valid)
approaches, those approaches do not negate my own.

[grandmatotwingles]

I'm not by anyway as smart as any of you... but I have a dumb question.... Cant CPS do any darn thing they want without having to "obey" the laws? I thought they had some kind of exemtion?

[Bob_Lynn]

I'm not by anyway as smart as any of you... but I have a dumb question.... Cant CPS do any darn thing they want without having to "obey" the laws? I thought they had some kind of exemtion?

No one has that power. I've heard others tell me caseworkers have told them they have that kind of power, it's blatantly false. They do have qualified or absolute immunity when they act in good faith but not when they knowingly violate the law and the Constitution.

[Greegor]

grandmatotwingles:

Yes and no. The agencies and the courts both do things
that are illegal, but if you don't CATCH them at it and
nail them for it, they don't get in trouble!

Most people including my own family start out
thinking CPS is the good guys and cooperate.
When they see the first documents from CPS
they are in for a big shock, unless they got lucky!

I have described the chase for your own civil rights
as being a bit like that "shell game" where you
try to guess what shell has the pea under it.
If you don't KNOW you are entitled to something
you have no idea that you got cheated out of it.

Tell people about the "stipulation scam" or else
they just don't know how rotten it is that
their own attorney will STRONGLY urge them
to "stipulate" just 15 minutes before the hearing
is scheduled.

When I found out about the requirement for
Family Active Participation in the FORMATION
of the Services Plan, only THEN did I know
we had been cheated out of this.

If you don't know which shell has the
pea under it you don't get your rights.

Citizens should not have to be lawyers
to keep from being abused by the system.
Even PAID Family Law attorneys are ignorant
of various legal aspects of CPS and Juvenile Court.
Sure, they know lots of things we don't, but
if you're in here you also know a few things
most of them do NOT know.

[mousey]

Could some one just explain to me a little more where the 4th Amendment comes into play with CP? I have had conflicting stories that they have the right in suspected child abuse case to seize children without a warrant. And if they try to, what do you throw in their face?

I just had a friend who had her child siezed when she was at work and the child was at her home with a babysitter.

I want to do what I can to help her.

[dasuberding]

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

CPS and the state and federal govt. look at children as property. Just like cattle or a vehicle. Very expensive property. Being that CPS never gets a warrant to legally abduct children (property), this makes the act unconstitutional therefore, an illegal act. The states can make any laws they want as long as it doesn't infringe on the constitution and the bill of rights.

[grandmatotwingles]

Thanks you Greegor for the explanation. Seems to me they can do what they want and they do get away with it.

I know in my daughters case all the CPS lady has to say it "well if ya don't do this that or sign this and that I'm taking the kids" It's blackmail as far as I'm concerned. My daughter has no rights and neither do my grandsons. My grandsons would have some major seperation issues if she were to take the kids. I've told the CPS lady "to put those boys with strangers is NOT in their best interest". The twins are very stranger shy and very family orientated. The 4 yr old is a super mommys boy, yet he deals with strangers better.... heck offer him a cookie and he'd go with anyone.. normal 4yr old in that respect.

The CPS lady has all rights to all medical and therapy record.... yep my daughter signed that paper for fear the CPS lady would take the kids. My daughters way of thinking is "I have nothing to hide". I agree with her.... but it's just wrong that blackmail threw the CPS agency IS exceptable. I thought that was the whole idea behind the HIPPA law.

These boy are not abused they are not neglected, there is no drugs no drinking... nothing in that home like that, nor in mine. The only abuse is comming from CPS. The only thing in that home is a young mother with 3 children under 4.. and a hard to handle 4 yr old. ........ just makes me sooooooooo mad.

[Greegor]

Did she get a copy of what she signed?
While it won't nullify the signature there
are arguments to that effect.
If you sign a contract and they don't give you
a copy of it, it can be voided in some cases.

My SO signed something early on and the
investigative caseworker did not give her
a copy of it. Days later we went to her
boss in their office (she was on vacation)
and the boss Roberta tried making excuses
for her saying "Well, maybe she didn't
have a copy to give you!" but then she
found the document and it was one of those
5 part carbonless forms, with sheets
all different colors and one marked for
the parent.

I said: "Why were you trying to make EXCUSES
for Maggie not giving her HER COPY when you
KNOW it is a multipart form like that?
Clearly she DID have a copy for [the mother]!"

People CAN RETRACT signatures, but the
court and agency will ignore that.
Do it anyway, but expect them to become hostile.

Is she "appeasing the alligator" or is she going to fight?

[grandmatotwingles]

Is she "appeasing the alligator" or is she going to fight?

She's been doing everything the CPS lady tells her to do. There is no fight, just a bunch of running around and letting people in her house. They come and go like there's a revolving door. The alligator is the school, who called because the 4 yr old had a bruise on his ear.