The children come first. The goal is reunification.

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Dan Sullivan
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The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:04 pm

If you lost your children to fostercare and you did nothing wrong - get passed your anger - don't admit to anything you didn't do no matter what CPS says - prove that the report was false - prove that the evidence against you isn't credible - and demonstrate that your children will be safe and secure home with you.

Avoid signing any kind of plan. Tell CPS your attny advises against signing but you will take advantage of whatever services your attny says are appropriate and necessary.

Even if you don't think any services are worth taking, it would be to your benefit if you did something proactive, something as simple as taking a parenting course (ten classes, usually one a week for ten weeks).

And try and get someone from the opposition to support reunification.

If you lost your kids and there's credible evidence that you did something wrong - get passed your anger - admit your mistake - cooperate by taking any services that are appropriate and necessary to getting your children back - and then hope and pray you do - try and get someone from the opposition to support reunification.

Whether you did something wrong or not, if the Court orders services, it's out of your hands.

And in either case try and have your children placed with relatives. This is extremely important for the physical and mental well-being of your children and is why you should get passed your anger and not unnecessarily antagonize the opposition. They aren't going to do anything you want, even if it's in the best interest of the children, if you're trying to make them miserable. I know it's difficult, but the children come first. And everything else is a distant second.

Dan

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sob900
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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby sob900 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:47 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:If you lost your children to fostercare and you did nothing wrong - get passed your anger - don't admit to anything you didn't do no matter what CPS says - prove that the report was false<THE PROSECUTING ATTOURNEY HAS BURDON OF PROOF/ - prove that the evidence against you isn't credible - and demonstrate that your children will be safe and secure home with you. <THEY ASLO HAVE BURDON OF PROOF/HOW CAN YOU DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST SOMETHING YOU DIDNT DO?

Avoid signing any kind of plan. Tell CPS your attny advises against signing but you will take advantage of whatever services your attny says are appropriate and necessary.< I AGREE, IF YOU DO SIGN SOMETHING YOU WERE FORCED TO, MAKE SURE YOU RESCIND YOUR SIGNATURE.

Even if you don't think any services are worth taking, it would be to your benefit if you did something proactive, something as simple as taking a parenting course (ten classes, usually one a week for ten weeks). <wRONG, THE MORE YOU DO THE MORE, IF YOU ARE TRUELY INNOCENT, THE MORE YOU WILL MAKE YOUR SELF OUT TO BE GUILTY OF SOMETHING. WHY DO SOME THING THAT MAY IMPLY YOU ARE GUILTY IF YOU ARE NOT?

And try and get someone from the opposition to support reunification.

If you lost your kids and there's credible evidence that you did something wrong - get passed your anger - admit your mistake - cooperate by taking any services that are appropriate and necessary to getting your children back - and then hope and pray you do - try and get someone from the opposition to support reunification.> I AGREE, GET THE HELP IF YOU TRUELY NEED IT, BUT MAKE SURE YOUR CHILDRENS AN YOUR RIGHTS ARE SAFEGAURDED.

Whether you did something wrong or not, if the Court orders services, it's out of your hands.<ONLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE GUNS AND MONEY.

And in either case try and have your children placed with relatives. This is extremely important for the physical and mental well-being of your children and is why you should get passed your anger and not unnecessarily antagonize the opposition. They aren't going to do anything you want, even if it's in the best interest of the children, if you're trying to make them miserable. I know it's difficult, but the children come first. And everything else is a distant second.< I AGREE WITH THIS ALSO, BUT DONT FORGET TO SAFEGUARD YOUR FAMILIES RIGHTS.

Dan
"They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys. It has worked well for over two hundred years and we're not using it anymore." George Carlin

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Bob_Lynn » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:57 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:Whether you did something wrong or not, if the Court orders services, it's out of your hands.


This is sheer ignorant nonsense, you can appeal any court decision. Don't ever believe any court ruling is final unless it's a US Supreme Court ruling or the US Supreme Court declines your writ of certiorari, then the last court ruling is final.

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby gideonmacleish » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:30 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:
Whether you did something wrong or not, if the Court orders services, it's out of your hands.


Dan


Sorry, Dan, I have to join with Bob in disagreeing VEHEMENTLY here. That's the kind of thinking that gives too much control to corrupt judges.

Dan Sullivan
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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Dan Sullivan » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:34 am

Bob_Lynn wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:Whether you did something wrong or not, if the Court orders services, it's out of your hands.


This is sheer ignorant nonsense, you can appeal any court decision.


I didn't say they couldn't appeal the decision.

I merely said "...it's out of your hands."

Before the Court orders services it's is still open to discussion between CPS and the parents.

After the Court orders it, according to you, Bob, it's up to the Supreme Court... I guess that does take it out of the hands of the parents.


Bob_Lynn wrote: Don't ever believe any court ruling is final unless it's a US Supreme Court ruling or the US Supreme Court declines your writ of certiorari, then the last court ruling is final.


How long would something like that take, Bob, if you know.

And how many documented appeals of a Family Court order of services have you found in your legal research, and how many times did the parents prevail?

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Bob_Lynn » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:11 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:I didn't say they couldn't appeal the decision.

I merely said "...it's out of your hands."


You're contradicting yourself, it's in your hands to appeal.

Dan Sullivan wrote:Before the Court orders services it's is still open to discussion between CPS and the parents.

After the Court orders it, according to you, Bob, it's up to the Supreme Court... I guess that does take it out of the hands of the parents.


That's not what I said. First off, an appeal of a family/juvenile court order is made to the State Superior Court and their decision can be appealed to the State Supreme Court and then on to Federal Court, etc. Second, I reiterate, it's in the hands of the potential appellant to appeal. The ruling is always out of the hands of the individual, you're convoluting the argument.

Bob_Lynn wrote: Don't ever believe any court ruling is final unless it's a US Supreme Court ruling or the US Supreme Court declines your writ of certiorari, then the last court ruling is final.


Dan Sullivan wrote:How long would something like that take, Bob, if you know.


That is not the issue, you falsely claimed that when a court orders services, "it's out of your hands", implying there's nothing more that can be done. Don't change the subject.

Dan Sullivan wrote:And how many documented appeals of a Family Court order of services have you found in your legal research, and how many times did the parents prevail?


See above, I don't keep such statistics, do you? It's not relevant to this discussion.

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Dan Sullivan » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:53 am

Bob_Lynn wrote: ... an appeal of a family/juvenile court order is made to the State Superior Court and their decision can be appealed to the State Supreme Court and then on to Federal Court, etc. Second, I reiterate, it's in the hands of the potential appellant to appeal...


Bob_Lynn wrote: Don't ever believe any court ruling is final unless it's a US Supreme Court ruling or the US Supreme Court declines your writ of certiorari, then the last court ruling is final.


Dan Sullivan wrote:How long would something like that take, Bob, if you know.


Bob_Lynn wrote:That is not the issue, you falsely claimed that when a court orders services, "it's out of your hands", implying there's nothing more that can be done. Don't change the subject.


I'm not changing the subject.

You mentioned the appeal can be made to the Supreme Court.

And I asked how long that complete process would take.

It seems you've added a few more steps to the process...

Now you claim the first appeal is made to "State Superior Court and their decision can be appealed to the State Supreme Court and then on to Federal Court."

How long would that complete process take?

You must have some idea.

Ballpark timewise each of the three steps for me, Bob.


Dan Sullivan wrote:And how many documented appeals of a Family Court order of services have you found in your legal research, and how many times did the parents prevail?


Bob_Lynn wrote: See above, I don't keep such statistics, do you? It's not relevant to this discussion.


Sure it is.

And I didn't ask for statistics.

Do you recall finding any documentation of that kind of appeal, surely you would remember.

And if so did the parents prevail in any?


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Postby Bob_Lynn » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:58 pm

Give it a rest Dan, when you're wrong, change the subject instead of admit you're wrong. Very immature.

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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:15 pm

Bob_Lynn wrote:Give it a rest Dan, when you're wrong, change the subject instead of admit you're wrong. Very immature.


Bob, if you're going to convince me to recommend someone appeal a Family Court order of services, what should I tell them when they ask me how long it could take?

That the length of time is irrelevant?

That the guy who told me about it doesn't know?

You brought up the appeals, Bob. You should at least be able to say how long it might take.

You claim the first appeal is made to "State Superior Court and their decision can be appealed to the State Supreme Court and then on to Federal Court."

Ballpark timewise each of the three steps for me, Bob.

Don't you want anyone to know?

Would the length of time it took make recommending it a ridiculous suggestion?

IOW would the children involved have aged say, more or less than five years, by the time the appeals process was over?????

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Postby Bob_Lynn » Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:47 pm

I'm not trying to convince of anything Dan, I merely pointed out you're wrong and explained why. You're trying to get into a different matter because you can't admit you're wrong. You can discuss timing with yourself if you like, it has nothing to do with the fact that you're wrong or the crux and significance of the issue I was pointing out. This is either a difficult concept for you or you're trying to act stupid (I say the latter because I know better).

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:47 pm

Bob_Lynn wrote: I'm not trying to convince of anything Dan, I merely pointed out you're wrong and explained why.


Just because someone CAN appeal a Family Court order doesn't mean they should.

Bob_Lynn wrote: You're trying to get into a different matter because you can't admit you're wrong.


I'm discussing the matter that you brought up, Bob.

I simply want to know how long each of the three appeal steps would take, if you know.

If you don't know, say so.


Bob_Lynn wrote: You can discuss timing with yourself if you like, it has nothing to do with the fact that you're wrong or the crux and significance of the issue I was pointing out.


The significance of the issue is whether an appeal causes reunification to take significantly longer than if you chose not to appeal.

How much longer is acceptable to you, Bob?

If children come first will appealing a Family Court order of services significantly delay reunification considering the fact that the longer children stay in foster care the harder it is to get then out.

Your failing to answer my simple questions, Bob, only leads me to conclude that the three step appeal process is not in the best interest of the children.

Can you tell me how long the FIRST step would be, if you know.


Bob_Lynn wrote:This is either a difficult concept for you or you're trying to act stupid (I say the latter because I know better).


Time is not a difficult concept for me, Bob.

And I'm not acting stupid by asking you how long the appeal process would take.

If you do know better why can't you answer my simple questions?

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Postby Bob_Lynn » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Your buddy needs your help, go get em tiger.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/headsheld ... ssage/1617

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:00 am

Bob_Lynn wrote:Your buddy needs your help, go get em tiger.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/headsheld ... ssage/1617


If you want me to respond, delete your post and start a new thread.

Your post is obviously a complete change of the subject.

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Postby Bob_Lynn » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:50 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:Your post is obviously a complete change of the subject.


My apologies for changing the subject but I didn't want to start a new thread over this and Bruce said it was an emergency. Based on his next post, you now have yet another person you can quote whenever you need to praise yourself:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/headsheld ... ssage/1618

So you should thank me.

PS - Much more importantly, I hope you can help this family.

Dan Sullivan
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:37 am

Bob_Lynn wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:Your post is obviously a complete change of the subject.


My apologies for changing the subject but I didn't want to start a new thread over this and Bruce said it was an emergency. Based on his next post, you now have yet another person you can quote whenever you need to praise yourself:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/headsheld ... ssage/1618

So you should thank me.


Thank you, Bob?

Why?

Long before you changed the subject in this thread to Bruce's post on HHH I was contacted by another advocate and asked to call Bruce.

I spoke with Bruce (always a pleasure) and then spoke with the people on Long Island.

Hours later you posted the link to the message on HHH and you think I should thank you for that?

Think again.

BTW here's Bruce's message on HHH that you posted the link to,

"Today we put out a call for help to Mr. Sullivan. Within hours he responed and is helping another family. It is not like Dan and I talk alot to one another. Even though some may think we are brothers that went to different schools together. We have never meet but we share the same goals reuniteding Families and keeping them together. It is nice to know that someone has your back in this fight. Dan nor I need any glory for what we do it is about what is right. I had no question when the call came in about Long Island I needed to find Dan. He is the best man to handle this case. He believes like I do talk is cheap results matter. It is easy to tell people to buck the system even if it means your children will not come home for a longer period of time. When your own children are home after you complied with the system you tell others to fight. I believe the most important thing is stop families from being seperated and if they are getting them back together as soon as possible. Dan is a man who can be trusted to do what is in the best interest of the family not himself. He has a proven record of success as we at Heads are starting to get. In my humble opinion if you have not gotten a child reunited you are failing as a advocate and your advice should be ignored. I would like to end this post again thanking Dan for being a standup guy and helping. To me he is a true hero in this battle we face.

Thank You
Bruce Bayer"

If the "BAN DAN" thread was still going I would have posted Bruce's message there.

But back to the subject of appealing, if I'm not mistaken CPS asked you to do something during your case and you didn't want to do it.

Yet you did it without a court order let alone an appeal, is that correct, Bob?

Did you not demand a court order and then appeal the decision because it would have delayed getting the kids home?

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Postby Bob_Lynn » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:02 am

I have no idea what you and Bruce discussed about me or my case and I don't care nor am I interested in discussing specifics with you. Bruce does just as good a job of convoluting issues as you. Anything he says or posts on HHH about me has to be taken in light of who says it. My policy at this point is not to respond to anything Bruce says or insinuates about my family. If there's an appropriate issue, I will discuss it with my attorney.

This is way off the topic and I have no more to say in this thread unless you post other erroneous nonsense.

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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:55 am

Bob_Lynn wrote:I have no idea what you and Bruce discussed about me or my case...


I didn't say I discussed anything about you with Bruce.

And I did write "if I'm not mistaken..."

If I am mistaken you can say so.

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:56 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:If you lost your children to fostercare and you did nothing wrong - get passed your anger - don't admit to anything you didn't do no matter what CPS says - prove that the report was false.


sob900 wrote: THE PROSECUTING ATTOURNEY HAS BURDON OF PROOF.


True.

And he can claim he has proof.

And everytime I was founded by CPS they claimed they had "proof," too.

And everytime, when I challenged them to produce the credible evidence, they couldn't.


Dan Sullivan wrote: - prove that the evidence against you isn't credible - and demonstrate that your children will be safe and secure home with you.


sob900 wrote:THEY ASLO HAVE BURDON OF PROOF/HOW CAN YOU DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST SOMETHING YOU DIDNT DO?


By proving it didn't happen or proving that the credible evidence they claim to have isn't credible.

Once I was founded for slapping my son in the face on a weekend I was denied visitation and I had a police report for documentation.

CPS founded the report without ever speaking with me or even letting me know what the allegation was.


Dan Sullivan wrote: Even if you don't think any services are worth taking, it would be to your benefit if you did something proactive, something as simple as taking a parenting course (ten classes, usually one a week for ten weeks).


sob900 wrote: wRONG, THE MORE YOU DO THE MORE, IF YOU ARE TRUELY INNOCENT, THE MORE YOU WILL MAKE YOUR SELF OUT TO BE GUILTY OF SOMETHING. WHY DO SOME THING THAT MAY IMPLY YOU ARE GUILTY IF YOU ARE NOT?


Taking alcohol classes or anger management classes may imply there's issues involving alcohol or anger.

Taking a parenting class implies someone is trying to be a better parent. I think not taking a parenting class implies the parent believes their skills couldn't be improved. And I think a Judge is going to assume every parent's skills could use improvement... and further there had to be a valid reason CPS brought them to court. I think it's a step in the right direction for a parent to get the Judge to view them as a reasonable and concerned person. And it will make the Judge more inclined to accept the evidence the parents submit as proof that CPS and the county attny are mistaken.
Last edited by Dan Sullivan on Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Bob_Lynn » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:02 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:and further there had to be a valid reason CPS brought them to court.


Please clarify, are you saying CPS always has a valid a reason they brought parents to court or there should always be a valid reason or the judge assumes there's a valid reason?

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:10 am

Bob_Lynn wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:and further there had to be a valid reason CPS brought them to court.


Please clarify, are you saying CPS always has a valid a reason they brought parents to court or there should always be a valid reason or the judge assumes there's a valid reason?


You can cut the first nine words in the sentence you just edited.

Then paste them in front of the fourteen words you chose to quote... and answer your own question.

Clear enough?

Or do I have to cut and paste it myself for you, Bob?

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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.

Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:34 pm

Dan Sullivan wrote:
Whether you did something wrong or not, if the Court orders services, it's out of your hands.

Dan


gideonmacleish wrote: Sorry, Dan, I have to join with Bob in disagreeing VEHEMENTLY here. That's the kind of thinking that gives too much control to corrupt judges.


How long approximately is each step of the appeal process, Gid?

According to Bob, the appeal's three steps are, "State Superior Court and their decision can be appealed to the State Supreme Court and then on to Federal Court."

Ballpark timewise each of the three steps for me.

Just trying to get a perspective.

Best, Dan

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Postby Bob_Lynn » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:15 pm

Pathetic.

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Postby Dan Sullivan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:14 pm

It's called exploring the options.

Fact finding.

I have to know the ins and outs.

The pros and cons.

If someone asks me about appealing a Family Court order I don't want to say "It's an option, but I don't know how long it takes."

In the years I've been helping people fight CPS I've never heard it done.

So obviously I wouldn't know how long it takes.

The time factor is always a major consideration when children are in foster care, especially when the longer they're in, the harder it is to get them out.

Children and reunification come first.

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Postby gideonmacleish » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:11 am

This is EXACTLY how our Constitutional rights get usurped; experts demanding we "give them what we want".

When we were dealing with CPS, I lost a friendship over the fact that I wouldn't take her legal advice to just submit. I believe if we HAD just given in, we wouldn't have our kids at this moment, Dan.

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Postby Dan Sullivan » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:19 am

gideonmacleish wrote:This is EXACTLY how our Constitutional rights get usurped; experts demanding we "give them what we want".


What are you referring to, Gid?


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