Good or Bad? What say we?

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Do you think CPS is harmful or helpful in this situation

Poll ended at Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:47 pm

Harmful
0
No votes
Helpful
1
100%
 
Total votes: 1

Queenie08
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Good or Bad? What say we?

Postby Queenie08 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:47 pm

By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 45 minutes ago



ELDORADO, Texas - Child welfare officials following up on an abuse complaint took custody of 18 girls Friday who lived at a secretive West Texas religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

total of 52 girls, ages 6 months to 17 years, were bused away on Friday to be interviewed, but only 18 were immediately taken into state custody, said Texas Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner. No arrests had been made.

Meisner said welfare officials were looking for foster homes for the girls, most of whom have rarely been outside the insular world of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They were being housed for now at a civic center, she said.

"We're dealing with children that aren't accustomed to the outside world, so we're trying to be very sensitive to their needs," Meisner said.

Authorities had interviewed about half the girls since arriving Thursday evening at the remote compound with law enforcers, she said. Interviews were expected to continue over the weekend.

The investigation began with a call alleging physical abuse of a 16-year-old girl living there, Meisner said.

On Friday afternoon, the Department of Public Safety officials began executing a search warrant.

The warrant seeks records dealing with the birth of children to a 16-year-old and any records listing a marriage between a 50-year-old man and the girl, according to the San Angelo Standard-Times, which cited court records released late Friday in Tom Green County. Prosecutors in Tom Green, a larger county north of Eldorado, were handling the case.

An arrest warrant was issued, but the individual that public safety officials are looking for had not been located Friday evening, said spokeswoman Tela Mange. She said she could not reveal whose name was on the warrant.

"We have been working very closely with the adults at the ranch, and they have been assisting us in our search," she said.

The ranch covers roughly 1,700 acres. It is north of this two stoplight town, down a narrow paved road. Authorities blocked access to the compound's gate, keeping onlookers miles away.

Only the compound's 80-foot-tall, gleaming white temple is visible on the wind-swept desert horizon.

State officials said they did not know how many people lived at the retreat, but local officials in 2006 put the number at about 150, as members of the reclusive church moved from a community on the Arizona-Utah line.

The congregation, known as FLDS, and has been led by Jeffs since his father's death in 2002. It is one of several groups that split from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, based in Salt Lake City, decades after it renounced polygamy in 1890.

In November, Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.

In Arizona, Jeffs is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. He is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial.

The group's retreat, about 160 miles northwest of San Antonio, is on a former exotic game ranch. The group bought the property in 2004 for $700,000 and began an ambitious construction program anchored by the temple.
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debbiescalese
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Postby debbiescalese » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:47 am

Funny as I was reading this I have cnn on and what were they reporting just this. I gotta say I have seen a lot on this topic over the years and having mutipal wives is againt the law period. If the children are under age and sleeping with adult males that is illegal. So removal is legally a necessity. this should be handled legally and the fact that they have removed the children with out pressing charges consernes me ...makes me think it is more an assumption of abuse and they can't prove things which means they don't have enough and cps should butt out. on the other hand if this was going on than cps is helpful in this case. Honestly the news is not letting out enough detail to really decide helpful or not.

Queenie08
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Postby Queenie08 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:18 am

"An arrest warrant was issued, but the individual that public safety officials are looking for had not been located Friday evening, said spokeswoman Tela Mange. She said she could not reveal whose name was on the warrant. "

Sorry don't know how to use the quote button yet....

you can not press charges against an individual that has not been arrested. You must first find the person, then read the individual their rights, if they choose seek an attorney. the charges will then be filed. As normal, when you are arrested, you are told what the charges are.

Now, what I do respect is their culture. It is their culture to have multiple wives. May be against the law, but I have to respect that. My concern is the children. Are the girls being forced to marry older men, have sex with them and produce children. Sorry but a 12 year old can NOT consent to sex! Especially not with an individual who is 50! OMG
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Marina
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Postby Marina » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:07 pm

.

A writing handbook contains a list of "thinking skills."

1. knowledge
2. comprehension
3. application
4. analysis
5. synthesis
6. evaluation

...not necessarily in that order.

But I have found the sequence in the book to be very useful.

First, what are the facts? News reports normally furnish a limited number of facts. This can be seen in subsequent news reports. When we hear more of the story then our first impressions may change.

Second, how do we interpret the facts? Psychologists have a certain way of interpreting statements made by their clients. Sometimes they tell people that there is nothing wrong with the situation, but there is something wrong with the way a person reacts to a situation.

Third, how do we apply the facts and information?

Fourth is analysis. The writing book gives a cluster of words for each thinking skill. Another word relating to 'analysis' would be 'comparison.' How does this situation compare with similar situations. Words like Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Jonesboro come to mind.

Fifth, synthesis. What should the strategy be? During a previous incident the U. S. Attorney General became involved. It is obvious that a situation like this requires expertise which the average person would not possess.

Evaluation. Judgement. - - A person is innocent until proven guilty. Even a judge in a courtroom needs time to look over all the evidence and takes time to make a decision.

.
Last edited by Marina on Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Queenie08
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Postby Queenie08 » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:57 pm

Hmmm.... Thanks for telling me that I am dumb. So back to my earlier question - do you think that CPS in this case is helpful or hurtful. I have been following this incident in the news with the same information that you get. So far, I see that there are young teenage girls 12-17 giving birth to babies by mean that are 50 years old and up. Sorry, but I see that fact as abuse and neglect. Don't matter to me if someone thinks this is appropriate or not, minors can't consent to sex. That is unless they are married, and in Texas you must be at least 17 to marry.

Thank you though for posting your opinion. It is obvious that we disagree on this subject.

Thank you once again for your posts. I hear your concerns.
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katgotsteve
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Postby katgotsteve » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:03 pm

i find it apalling that 12-17 y/o girls are forced into marriage with older men.
do i think enough was done? there will never really be enough done, cps come into the this situation and did what they could do. until the legal portion of this world quit allowing certain crimes to pass becuase of political correctness nothing will ever be enough.
in utah, poligamy is ok in most sectors, but by over looking the simple law of pologamy, they have now overlooked the children that brought up in that and often allow alot of men to go on power kicks and think they need to be the ones to populate the world. we live in the US and though i agree with the rights to have ones own religion and thoughts, i also know that even the bilble says "obey the laws righteous laws of man"
to me there is a line between religion and cult and i feel that the multiple marriage between a man and children has crossed that line.
to sum up for the question you asked, cps did all it can be done in a situation like this becuase yall are not a law enforcement agency. your office should place the children, but i fear that this office will probably do more harm than good, becuase most of the children now have children and cps will probably split these families up confirming to these kids that "the government" is bad.
one thing i think cps forgets when they remove a child is, though the mother or father may or may not have been at legal fault for abuse, you also remove this child from her home, her grandmother, her grandfather, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles. in most time all family members are treated as criminals and have to jump through hoops to see the children. i had the foster parents call and ask me to buy medicine for my child, but would not let me comfort my child, they even got where they would not let her call becuase they did not want to give her false hope, they also told my niece that the judge may not let her come home so they were going to keep her, then the foster parents called the worker and told her i said it. often in a need to make better, cps often makes worse and has created an atmosphere of fear and indifference for children who do not need to be remove. the children come home angry and often feel like the parents let them down. it often becomes the parents job to pick up the pieces with out the "help" that helped create the situation in the first place.
no organization should come in a crusade of hope and help and then when the funding is gone or the situation is worse or "over with" in their eyes just take off and hope everything works out.

Kenneth2816
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Postby Kenneth2816 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:53 pm

In my opinion, these polugamist cases seem very much like the day care debacles on the 80's and 90's. The whole raid was based (from what I hear) on an anonymous call from a girl who cliamed to be beaten, pregnant and forced to have sex with a 50 year old yet............

they cannot find her. 401 kids, and they cannot find her...

Was there ever really a phone call?

If there was, since it was made apparently from a "borrowed cell phone" (something not allowed in the compound) why the can they not trace the number, do a GPS hit on the phone, and at least locate the owner of the phone to verify if the girl really was inside that compound.

The whole reason given for the warrant was a pick up order on this unknown young girl. They still haven't found her.

My understanding is that federal courts have ruled an anonymous call is NOT grounds for a search warrant.

Something about this doesn't ring true...either there never was a call, or Texas DFCS is putting a lie out about how they cannot now find her...

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mrsmac
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Postby mrsmac » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:18 pm

Ive been watching this case very closely too and trying to see all sides, religious rights and all....

I have very mixed feelings that I wont get into deeply but there are so many sides to this story....and from what ive watched, the authorities had a plan in place to activate as soon as they found a valid reason to raid the compound, this alleged call being the reason used....

I dont agree with the abuse or the religious views by any means, but what is going to happen to all these children and young women????? They are completely unworldly, have no idea what life is like outside the commune and think they will go to hell if they dont follow what they have been brainwashed to think of as the truth. How will CPS and the authorities deal with such large numbers of such confused children and teens plus the adult women that came out with their children????? An extremely sad situation and there are several of these compounds around the USA and one that i know of here in Canada....

The trauma must be just terrible for these poor children no matter what way you look at it....
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galations 6:2

Kenneth2816
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Postby Kenneth2816 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:49 am

mrsmac, they will likley have to charge the adult mothers with neglect for allowing it in order to place the kids in foster care. Then they will have to prove it in court. You know the drill: they allege abuse against the fathers, the blame the mothers for not stopping it. There are a potential 401---count 'em--401 inductees into Foser Care.

These mother's will be given an ulitmatum: leave their lifestyles and husbands or lose the children. Religion or not. there simply can BE no other outcome. I mean what?

They are going to make 200-300 adults go to "parenting class" to work their case plan?

Some of the mothers will turn. They will become star witnesses for the state. but it is the children who will suffer. It is like placing them in the witness protection program....they will be forced to provide housing, assitance, etc. If some of the mothers choose not to return, then the state will impose upon them the burden of supporting thier own children (which they cannot do) and non support is one of THE biggest reasons for state custody.

I am afraid it will not bode well for any of these people. The kids have no idea of any worng doing-all they know is they are losing everything they have ever known.......

yellernboyz
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Postby yellernboyz » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:20 am

UNFORTUNETALY THESE KIDS ARE RAISED TO THINK THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY OF LIVING. This is normal in their world. Marrying a 50 year old man is normal because that is what they were taught.But I am sure CPS is making money off this so they are happy. They don't care about the kids. They never do. At least they look good in the news again. I would like to see a news clip on them falsely ripping kids from a home without cause!

Kenneth2816
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Postby Kenneth2816 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:08 am

I've given some more thought to this case. Unless I am wrong, 416 kids is some sort of world record for removal. Also, from what I understand, this took place in a relatively small, rural county. My tally shows 416 kids, and i think 183 adult (mothers) females are currently "residing" outside the walls of that compound.

I cannot comprehend the logistical nightmare; the man-hours and personnel it must take, the mountain of paperwork it will generate, the tangle in the court system- (each kid will have their own Guardian Ad Litem as example, and if any of the mothers are tapped with neglect, each will have to have thier own attorney). It is like a natural disaster.

In the end, I am betting the State will prevail up to an including siezure or forfeiture of the property to pay for all of this...I could be wrong their. I just don't see theswe people returning to their sanctuary and completing the standard "safety plans" or "reunifcation efforts" along with therapy, anger managment, couples therapy that is the "norm".

But then, what will happen since, in this instance, it may be impossible to "prove" who the biological fathers really are to these kids? I mean, heck, one man could have fathered 10-20 kids and since I am certain the "public record" is sketchy (my understanding is that no one even had a clue there were that many kids living there), establishing paternity may be impossible.

Also, it is my understanding that the males are free to leave the state. So this is going to be a story that will continue to develop for many weeks. It wouldn't surprise me to see numerous mutliple indictments for criminal (felony) child abuse be handed dwon on both the father's and the mothers. So anyway you look at it, these kids, or at least a good majority of them, will have to enter the system, unless "capable and willing" relatives can be found, or what? Put 416 kids in foster homes til 18?

I personally don't care about the "polygamy" aspect of it, it is no different than a married person having an affair on the side- but the physical, mental, emotional and sexual abuse of the children and the rapes, forced denial of food, the terroristic threats....

I have to say Texas CPS did good on this one.

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mrsmac
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Postby mrsmac » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:53 pm

I keep reading the news articles and watching the news of this on TV. My feelings are very mixed....something needed to be done but how are the children going to be cared for and how scarred are they going to be....

One person commented that maybe they shouldve removed all the men from the commune and interrogated or arrested them and sent people in to help care for and support the women and children instead of removing them. Then there would be places for the children, their moms would be with them and the people at fault would be the ones removed. Interesting perspective...

This is nasty, no matter which way it goes and very political too im thinking...

There is also call now for the other compounds to be raided...but again...what is the long term prognosis for the poor children?????
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galations 6:2

glass
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Postby glass » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:47 am

personally, i think there is alot of propaganda surrounding this whole thing. its horrible that they would split families apart like this. and as for the polygamy part, its no worse than the way alot of families live today. the government needs to mind its own business.

anxiousmom
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Postby anxiousmom » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:10 am

Katgotsteve,

I so agree with your statement:

"no organization should come in a crusade of hope and help and then when the funding is gone or the situation is worse or "over with" in their eyes just take off and hope everything works out."

And...sadly, I don't even think they "hope" everything works out once they pull out...they don't care & are just glad to no longer be involved.

I'm not sure that the state will be able to charge the mothers with neglect.....most likely the mothers were themsevles abused.......if not as adults, then when they were preteen/teenagers & forced into marriages & sexual activity & thus became mothers.

I am grateful that the mothers were allowed to go with their children.

It's going to be very difficult....if not impossible...for these mothers to be able to now "go out into the world" & get jobs & housing & be able to provide for their chilrden so that they can maintain custody of them.

It does seem like it would have been a good idea for the mothers & children to have been allowed to stay at the compound & have the men removed & cps & the others helping stay at the compound.

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Postby Marina » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:24 am

.

I only have access to the yahoo email news alerts relating to CPS, child welfare, etc. I haven't kept up with the TV coverage.

Thinking this through - - if a report is made, then it is standard policy for CPS to respond, which they did. Because it evidently was hard to find the person who made the complaint, the investigation led to contact with a number of other people. If professionals observe maltreatment in these other families, then they are mandated to report this also, which they did.

Some states have an alternative 'assessment' track which could possibly precede an adversarial 'investigation.' In situations involving medical neglect and physicial neglect, "family needs assessments," and a 'safety plan' would probably be done.

In general, I think most people would have some sympathy for families struggling with health care and living conditions. But most people don't have any patience with sexual abuse. If there were mothers who are minors themselves, then conclusions are drawn. If the numbers are significant, then there would be a conclusion that many minors are at risk.

It appears that no criminal charges have been filed yet, but circumstance indicate that this may happen when the investigations are complete.

What I have not gotten on these yahoo email alerts are any mention of the issues of weapons and domestic violence. Information about this would be relevant. A court in NY ruled that mothers who are victims of domestic violence should not be treated as perpetrators who "failed to protect."

There is a significant risk of sexual abuse and teen pregnancies in foster care also, especially in group homes. This of course is a concern.

I don't think CPS did anything that they don't normally do in individual cases. The fact that they contacted the governor several days before they went in shows that they probably had a team of lawyers on hand to make sure they would get their federal funding for all those cases, showing "reasonable efforts to prevent removal," etc.

An incident similar to this occurred in Arizona right after this one. An anonymous report was made in a polygamist sect and the girl couldn't be found. But they didn't do a general sweep of the whole town without probable cause. The report couldn't be 'validated' because the victim couldn't be found or identified. To validate a report of 'abuse or neglect', there has to be a minor victim, a caretaker, and jurisdiction.

I think it is good to keep in mind that CPS files civil cases. They file a lawsuit. If you were going to sue someone, how friendly would you feel toward that person? When you sue someone, you try to get their money, etc. You try to get them to do something or change something. You sue people that owe you money, that have hurt you. It is natural that those who are being sued would want to fight back and defend themselves - - to tell their side of the story. If somebody sued me, and then told me that they were going to help me, this wouldn't make any sense.

The whole situation is heartbreaking.

.

debbiescalese
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Postby debbiescalese » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:05 am

And now we get to hear the other side!! This moring on NBC a mother of one of the removed childern talked and wow her story sounds familiar. They have not talked to her and told her why they took her specific children, they have not told her how to get them back and some of the mothers are reporting that thier children in custody are sick and in need of medical treatment. I haven't checked to see if it is on the nbc website yet but the story was on the Today show.
See every story has 2 sides I was wonder when the other side would finally come out.

Kenneth2816
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Postby Kenneth2816 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:41 pm

Texas has put in an all points bulletin now for foster homes to take "up to six children". If this isn't a open door for REAL abuse to come, I don't know what is..they plan to ship these kids all over the state.

Today the mopthers were told they could not stay with thier childrne under 5, but must go to s shelter or "back to the compoiund" They should tell the males to leave, and let the mothers and kids stay in their "home".

I mean come on...just the law of averages indicates out of 416 kids, 4 will be sexually molested in foster care, 9 will suffer physical abuse, and 14 will suffer severe neglect. We ALL know that DSS thinks its job is "over" once the kids ar placed in foster homes, dont we?

debbiescalese
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Postby debbiescalese » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:17 am

See that is the part that pisses me off the most about the whole thing. The kids that weren't abused the "at risk" ones will now be abused children, the ones that were abused the majority I think it is something like 80% will be no better off. I'm sure some intervention was needed in this case but it is the handling of it the fact that they just removed them from one abusive home to the next, the follow through is what needs to be changed. Not only in this case but in how I have seen other cases handled as well. Yes some kids need help but it is the kind of help that they get that isn't really any help at all.

yellernboyz
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polygimast case

Postby yellernboyz » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:14 am

Did CPS even investigate? From what I understand, there was an anonymous call, CPS came in and removed all those children. Did they have grounds to come get those children? Or did they just see dollar signs? Maybe they were having funding issues and needed a big ticket. But don't they have to investigate each individuall child case and their family before making a removal? If someone makes an anonymous call about someone on my block do they have the right to remove all the children on the block? I forget, CPS is above the law. When will this all come to a head? When will we see publication about the numbers of wrongfully accused come into the public eye?

Queenie08
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Postby Queenie08 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:03 pm

CPS did investigate. If you go back to the original reports, it talks about how CPS worked in conjunction with local law enforcement, and did investigate everyone at the compound. In fact the original reports state that CPS went in at around 12:45am and did not remove the children until later the next day. Keep in mind also that the state must always investigate allegations of abuse and neglect. ALWAYS! It is not possible for a worker to just snatch a child unless an investigation was done and an assessment of the risk concluded. OBVIOUSLY, there were children at risk of being abused. I watched the clip of the mother talking to the reporter also. When the reporter ask her if underage girls were being married to older men, and having sexual intercorse with them, not once did she dispell the question - rather she dismissed it with "we are talking about the children right now." What some don't understand is that there are actually young girls that are under the age of 16 that are pregnant and involved in a marriage with the adult men. This is where the state more than likely finds is "risk" . The pattern for this culture is that the young girls are entered into spiritual marriages at the age of puberty and are required to produce children. Everyone has the right to spiritual freedom and religon, however, that ends where criminal actions begin. It is unlawful for a minor to be married in Texas. It is also unlawful for ANY person to have sexual intercorse with a minor. To me that means I don't care if she is 15 and says she is ready to marry... she can't consent to sex. This is the law black and white.

Please don't be ridiculous! I know most of you have had a bad experience with "the system" okay but be realistic and ensure that your information is correct YELLERNBOYZ I am specifically addressing you. The original post to this forum stated that authorities were interviewing the children and it extended well into the weekend.

And to answer your question... yes... if someone on your block makes an anonymous phone call in the middle of the night, it will go directly to statewide intake and filtered to the appropriate region to a superviosr, who will notify a worker who will knock on your door in the middle of the night if it meets the qualifications of a Priority 1. Furthermore if there is an arrest warrant out for you, and the police are proceeding to your house to bust you at 12:45 in the morning, if they even suspect that you have children, they will call the LOCAL CPS office and say "get an investigator out here, its about to get nasty, we may need someone to place the children with a relative or ensure the safety of the child!" then CPS will be right next to the cop.

I mean dang, I understand that this is FIGHTCPS.COM but honestly. Every accomodation has been given in this situation. It is not normal to allow an AP to reside with the child when the child has been removed. That is like saying, okay we have a mom who knows her husband sleeps with her child at night. CPS removes the child, but allows mom to reside with the child in the foster home. Get serious, did any of you reside with your kid when he/she was placed in Foster Care. Then why should this situation be any different? Yeah don't answer that it was a retorical question.

Thanks and Good Night!
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mrsmac
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Postby mrsmac » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:52 pm

This comment came from a British person in an article on this situation. I thot the comment quite good...I think the Texas judicial system is going to have its hands full dealing with this.....


"Unfortunately these are the same mothers who would shun their own children, and allow the cult to send away their boys, so that young girls can be married off to old men. They are no doubt hurting, as their whole lives are about raising kids, but hopefully it will give them time to think and educate themselves. In the short term, it may be difficult, but the long term implications of the cult being so secretive is that the cycle of abuse will be perpetrated. No community should be above the law, or abuse children in the name of 'religion'."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1811
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galations 6:2

Momoffor
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Postby Momoffor » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:45 pm

This isnt a culture thing. This is the Untied States, and when in the U.S. you follow U.S. laws.

If people want to claim culture then it would be ok for lynchings, gang rapes, murder, stonings ect all in the name of culture.

Religion ..well, thats B.S.

The kids I feel sorry for. This is what they know and what they have been taught. The sticky thing is for most of the teen mothers, they keep saying that teen girls are forced to have sex with adult men ect.

It is not illegal for a minor tobe married in TX. http://law.onecle.com/texas/family/2.102.00.html Legal age to marry in the state of TX is 16 with parental consent. Those parents are giving permission, even though the marriage is not legally done though the courts, they can still find some loophole about their religion not recognizing courts blah blah. T

hey are doing arranged marriages against the girls will. Where the rape ect comes to play.

They have been brainwashed into this thinking, but obviously, they know its wrong otherwise the authorities would have never gotten a call from the mystery girl for help.

Even by having the men leave, so the adult women and children can stay, would just be turmoil, as I am sure these girls/women have been taught they are nothing without their studly man around.

Yellern, if someone on your block gets CPS called on them for an abusive situation, all the children in THAT household are supposed to be removed. You have no control over what is going on in that house. As for this situation, its a COMPOUND/COMMUNE where everyone lives together in unity, taking care of each others children ect. Therefore, it would be the equivilent of a GIANT household.

One article I read stated there was confussion of who the biolgical mothers of the kids were because most of the kids named multiple mothers as their mom.

Instead of being angry at the system for causing turmoil in the kids lives, blame should be placed accordingly so. The adults in charge. They have destroyed these kids lives, they brainwashed them with this lifestyle, and now its time to focus on the kids finally getting to experience what a REAL childhood is like and to be able to experience this place we call AMERICA where we have RIGHTS.

The kids and the products of the community are/were nothing more than slaves to the religon and lifestyle they were born to unwillingly. Just like the crack addicted/aids infected babies being born in this world. They didnt have a choice. But unlike aids babies, there can be a 'cure' for this to the degree of non life threatening. The emotional issues will still be there for some.
I am sure it will be a major shock for some to get used to.

Some articles pointed out that people just walked out and away. Nameless and faceless.

To let the mothers and children stay together in the compound would be silly. They WILL go on the run to start over somewhere else. There are means to do that as the big cheese is loaded, and he isnt going to want ALL of his young things to be taken away forever and ever ....

I agree with Queenie on this subject.

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katgotsteve
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:47 am
Location: Georgia

Postby katgotsteve » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:36 am

i agree the removal of the children were necessary, i just hope the system will not fail these children the way it has failed so many of our other children.
now a new question. if there are more communes like this, when are they going to get raided. there should be enough probable cause to raid those. who knows it may end up like a Jim Jones thing if we let it continue. men who marry children to produce children isnt to far from mass sucide to me, we all know it can happen in this country. to some people death in pursuit of religion even by their own hands is a honor.
i just hope and pray these children are not harmed more.

donita
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:11 pm
Location: TN

Postby donita » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:58 am

My family has debated this all morning and this is how I feel.

This is America and every single person has a right to due process.

What they have done is essentially this. They have made it illegal to be a Mormon, the poligamist kind.

Look at it like this: I live in the mountains, in a valley and I go to a local church in my community. What if, an anonomous call was made to cps from a sixteen year old girl in my church saying someone had abused her. Does that give cps the right to seize every child above the age of 5 from every family in our church?

I personally am horrified at the unlawful seizer of all these children. Not every father and not every mother and not every child has been accused of abusing this unacounted for girl. This is a direct and unconstitutional act against a whole religion. AND WE SHOULD ALL BE HORRIFIED.

My family says, "but what about the abuse?" Obviously there needs to be an investigation but I want to know this.

Why do the children have to be removed from their families and homes to do that? Why can't they just remove the accused until all thing are cleared up? Again I say you can't seize a whole communities children based on the accusation towards one or two people. Unless ofcourse you beleive that these mothers are offering up their daughters as sacrifices to these men. Even with that I still say that you can't act upon the people of a whole religion based on the guilt of only a few. Personally, I don't buy it that they are all guilty. this whole thing is outrageous to me!!!!

If I've not been accused, you have no right to seize my children because of the neighborhood I live in or just because I go to the same church as my neighbor.

donita

Queenie08
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:24 pm
Location: Texas
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Postby Queenie08 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:52 pm

LOL! It IS illegal to be a polygamist kind of Mormon. The law remains the same. You may only have one wife.

The CPS system country wide... heck Earth Wide should be re-evaluated! I don't deny this. I mean heck when I started working, I was like oh... really thats all we need! But you know what, I have found that this method is best because there have been parents who know what they are doing is wrong, and have taken every measure in the world to cover themselves behind "the law".

Sorry, but that is not what the law is for. It is designed to PROTECT. This includes the 6 month old baby who can't verbalize that his father likes to molest him. Or the 16 year old, who comes home everyday and gets the crap beat out of him because his mother is a drunk!

It is even designed to protect those who don't have knowledge of it, such as those in at the Ranch. Let us not forget that the news reports also state that some of the women chose to go to a shelter and not return to the Ranch. Some of the women are being fully cooperative and giving vivid detail of what life is like on the Ranch. Bet you won't hear that though in the news... oh no all we here is Mary... whose babies are at the fort, and they want to come home.

Always more than TWO sides to every story... there is ALWAYS the THIRD side which is the side that is not told.

Tootles

Queen B
Be Well.... Live Well


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