What do u think about 416 children removed? from Texas

[Frustrated]

Today, I could not believe it, 437 Children and 100 of them are moved to Foster Care. and the Judge just okayed for CPS to move them in 16 different locations!!!! all across the State. They were hauled away again on the buses, giving more culture shock. But that is not all, it will void their rights to pray and among other things. They are no longer allowed their Rights to be exercised in Group Homes all across the State. Group Homes? They are not the best places to be in. Even our Cousin hated it. He got thrown out on the streets at age 21 because he aged out the foster care group home.

Anyways... what really is shocking is that 24 to 26 Cases of Children has gotten Chicken Poxes!!!! I heard on Nancy Grace Show and they mentioned that one of the girls had went into labor and given birth. Some of the Girls claimed they were over 18, but CPS determined they are below 18 and classified them as Children again, that's why the Count went up.

The question has me puzzled to WHY they only take 100 Children out of 437 to Foster Care Group Homes and private locations, over 16 different locations across Texas. and left the Rest at the Colesium Arena. It was disputed that these 100 Children are the older Children but other accounted that it has older children with the babies. CPS would not comment on this issue.

Imagine the confusion that the girls are being moved again to Group Homes. Nancy Grace Show has mentioned that the Men may have left the State in fears of being arrested. In addition to that, they said that the Sect. Mothers did not come in to get DNA Swaps. No reasons to why they did not come for the testings but some Sect. Mothers came for the swaps. I assume the ones that did not come are not the Mothers to these Children, who came to get swaps are the real Mothers to these Children. Or it could have been the opposite. Who knows? What happens if the Tests shows that there are No mothers to these Children? or they are wrong Mothers?

And back to their Ages, I am very interested to the fact why the girls are not giving actual names and birth dates but Sect. Mothers has told Lawyers they have actual Birth Certificates and Actual Marriage Licenses for these Girls. I am thinking if the Girls were right, and CPS were wrong about the Ages...they would be in a big heap of trouble with the Judge.

I know many girls can look older, some other girls can look younger, the age can fool you. They may look younger, but actually are older. Look at the Sect. Mothers, they look pretty young to me. and I see Older Sect. Mothers there on the News too. You can't determine the looks to determine the Age. You have to determine using the dental teeth work up, physical examinations and actual Birth Certificates will help in this Case too as well.

What a big mess and now 100 Children are gone, housed to God who knows where. No location known. Group Homes?
Can't be good. A big Culture Shock to these Girls, that's for sure. But not only that, they lost everything because once they go into these Foster Care, their Rights are voided. They can't pray no more...they can't wear dresses no more...they have to eat other foods that they are not used to.
In addition to that, I really, really HOPE that there will be NO Abuses on these Girls while in Foster Homes, whether Mentally, Physically, Verbally and Pscylogically one. They better not be abused. Better not be deprogrammed...not without a Doctor's consent. Because like I said, if the doctrine is applied wrong, it can be harmful to these Girls.

[donita]

The Lord knows what is going on down here at all times. He knows where you are, He knows where I am, He knows when every little sparrow falls; He knows where the children are. Our grief is nothing compared to His grief, over all the cruel things that we do to each other. He says that it would be better that a mill stone(big bolder) be tied around the neck of the ones who hurt the children and that they be cast into the water as compared to the judgement He is going to pass upon the guilty. I think, therefore, it is safe to conclude, that the guilty no matter how cunning, will not be able to hide from the Lord on judgement day.

I don't know how to help these children exept to pray for thier families and watch to see if there is any way that I can be of any assistance to them. And I think too, that we should strengthen and be there for each other until the Lord comes.

donita

[Frustrated]

Ditto, Donita. It will happen. I wouldn't want to be standing there and he tells that the guilty must be punished and go to eternal flame (hell), the guilty will not survive this. They had so many chances to reform themselves, and yet they made lots of people suffer.

I don't get this, if you want to be treated nice, you got to treat the others nice. That's how it works. If they impose sufferings upon the people, they will get the sufferings back.

The problem is this that CPS feels that they have done nothing wrong to these poor families. Well, Mental Abuse and Ripping Families are one of them. Even there are Abuses while in their Care, even more so, some of the poor children died in their care. That's murder by my opinion, because they did NOT take them to the Hospital immediately, but rather puts them in Foster Care fully knowing that they are in health distress and in need of Medical Help. But the Help was being ignorned so they died. What about the Trickersty, Cheating and the Lying? Those are the types that they have done wrong on the people. They were not being honest, and truthful, they cheat people. Isn't making them cry and feeling pain is one of them? What about Anxiety? And to name quite other suffereings they have imposed on poor families.
Done nothing wrong? They may think they are "saving people" but they aren't. They are abusing them mentally, verbally, and pschologically. Even for the Money. Money is dirty by their Greed.
If they think it is not about the Money, then forget about the pay cheque then. Do it for Free.
I bet they will say "but". I would do this for free, and volunteer but in order to do some "holier than thou's savings" I must make sure the people are comfortable, happy, not abused, etc...etc...I must be honest with them and be truthful and be blunt. Not cheating and being sneaky and misleading them. Telling them they will get their kids back, but later said No they aren't getting them back. That's lying. They have more dirty mouths than I can ever imagine. What about the threats? I heard plenty of them before. They were never truthful to start out from day one. Manipulation is one of them, and tells you to sign the papers then said you must take Voluntary Services. Then why the heck is Voluntary is put in for, it means you volunteer yourself for these Services, it is not mandatory. It doesn't stop there, they fabricate the documents and manipulate the papers to show that there were abuses but weren't. They don't show the Evidence. They cover it up. Covering up is being criminal.

What about Mind Games they are doing? That's worse. And to name quite other abuses they are capable of in the whole pot.

[rncmomx2]

According to another board I am on, the FLDS has moved and vacated the sites. They have "run", it seems they have moved out overnight. The compound is lifeless, not a soul. The thought is that they have possibly left to avoid CPS, fleeing to a compound in Mexico or Canada. Only a handful of parents showed up for the DNA testing, how sad is it that the parents are not concerned enough to show up and claim there child. If it was me I would be there ready, willing and abled. I would be there howling at the doors to let me in so I could claim my child and prove my inocense. I understand that they may be scared, but think of how scared your child is right now-not knowing where there parents are and if they are ever coming back. Please pray for these children, that they may be reunited with there families if and when they are found inocent.

[Frustrated]

Yes, I will pray for all 437 Children to find peace and renuification with their families.

FLDS are scared because they will be charged with virtually anything. Even Medical Neglect, as the kids weren't immunizied with shots. and an outbreak of these children has now Chicken Poxes. They were never sick once in their Lives and to be exposed to foreign germs at the Sports Arena and they have gotten ill.

I read on the News that one of the FLDS Fathers, lived in Utah, never seen his wife and his Children for 3 years, chosen to send his wife and his Children to Zion Compound while he stayed behind in Utah for his Work Job. He already showed up giving DNA Samples.

If the Men are not living at the Zion Compound, have not seen them for several years because of their jobs, and their responsibilites at the FLDS at another location. I don't know which one is worst, the American Soldiers serving overseas in Iraq War, not seeing their Families for years and these FLDS Fathers haven't seen their families for several years.

Even more shocking that some of the raided Children at the Zion Compound could be from Canada. Some of them are Canadians. I can understand if one family (normal society) is to send their children to Private Schools...this is somewhat similar. Utah and Arizona, these FLDS Families were ordered to send their designated other families to Zion Compound. For this reason, I don't know why such order is warranted. For Best Education? For better Living? For better protection?

How many FLDS Fathers are at the Zion Compound? It seems that there are more Women and Children at that Compound than it is for Men there. They are at the Utah/Arizona Compounds, possibly some are in Canada.

I am thinking...I think this could be "DIVERSED" Families we are dealing with. For example...
To avoid percussions like Older Men married to underaged Teens, they send them off to another State, and they remain in other State. To avoid connection of lineage, it's like a diversion.

It's hard to explain, one person is in one State, and another in Texas, Families apart just so that people can't connect the linkage of these families. The more further spread apart they are, the difficult it is to connect the linkage of their parentage. I can see why the FLDS Fathers stayed in another State to avoid Criminal Charges of Sexual Abuse. But then it all goes back to having to PROVE that this is Child Rape on underage girls. if this was consensual sex on both sides, then CPS would have a difficult time to prove that this is actual Child Rape on a 13 years old. If a 13 years old girl said she consented to the marriage and sex.

But I am also thinking .....what if they are not 13 years old? What if they are actually 16? FLDS Mothers said they have birth certificates and marriage licenses for these girls. saying that they are 16 and above. These Sect. Mothers claimed that there are no 13, 14 years old being forced into marriage, and sex. Furthermore, they say there were no force at that compound.

Now I am confused. lol But that's what I think is happening right now. If the Mothers can construct that there are actual birth certificates that they are indeed 16, CPS are screwed. If there are marriage licenses with these girls, and they are 16 and above. CPS can be in trouble, but Polygamy is still illegal in the United States.

[donita]

I'm thinking that CPS could have these families for abandonment if they can't find the actual parents of the children.

It seems to me that FLDS thinks that they can out smart CPS and the government. And maybe they can. I have a feeling that they have raised thier children to prophetically expect this kind of an assault. And possibly FLDS believe that the children who stay true to the faith will return on thier own someday.

What bothers me so much, is, I don't see how removing the children from a whole community could possibly be constitutional.
and if they are going to so blatently break the constitution, why not pick up the MEN if the goal is to attack a religion. WHY is it always the children. If you are going to declare war on an ideology, do it with some level of dignity. But going after the children? It makes me sick and I will not ever find any moral justification for that.

donita

[Frustrated]

I agree with you Donita on this one. Why the Children and not remove the Men from the Compound? And to remove the Children from the Mothers? The Mothers are not doing the Raping, these men are doing it. They could declare saying that the Mothers were neglectful by just standing there and doing nothing about the abuse and protecting the children. Call it failure to protect the Children. But you know, not only that, they will go against the FLDS Families for a strigent of other abuses including abandonment, medical neglect in having no immunization shots, physical abuse (spankings, water) and other Abuses they could name to pin on these Mothers. The Men for sure for Sexual Abuse and Rape. But CPS has to present the Case to the Court and PROVE ALL OF THESE ALLEGATIONS.

What is going to become of the babies? Why are they taking Mothers nursing the babies?! They are still breastfeeding and it is the most important thing for development and for their immune systems. CPS afraid of coaching? You CAN'T COACH A BABY!! These Babies are clueless and surely they are not being raped. They should be returned to the Mothers because there are no abuses on the babies. They would probably come back 10 years to get them. Who knows?

What I am CONCERNED about is...

437 Children in Foster Care being abused while in State Care. Even cause Sickenesses, and Hopefully not Death...

What if CPS say they lost them? Can't find them? (lying) Same case as Florida Girl that they can't find the girl? Remember that Case? I am afraid they spread them all over, then they will say they can't locate the kids or can't find them. They are lost. That's what I feared.

You could be right about abandonment issues. That's why they are using the upper hand using DNA Tests so they can prove this is an abandonment and that the kids had no parents. They will use that good reason to put them up for Adoptions and perm. Foster Care.

Or you could be right, These FLDS are trained not to say anything, trained not to give out pertienent information about themselves. I'm thinking they are treating the Zion Compound as a Private Schools and the Parents are truly in Utah and Arizona. Why send them off to Zion Compound? Even some of the Children are Canadians. It could be the first diversion they can think of and like you said, they could be very smart and knew what they are doing.

Or, they could very well planned this to make the Government and CPS look bad. I am glad one thing that the Media is now exposing CPS' tactics. Thank goodness for that. Now the People can finally see truly what they do! The more it goes on, the more People will get suspicious and even object to their evil tactics. The Nursing Babies taken from Mother. That's just the beginning. Next, they could claim that CPS are not respecting the Children's Religion.

I am also thinking that these girls are not really 13, but 16. FLDS trying to make Government look bad and themselves look good. All the more reasons why the Children giving out wrong ages and not giving last names. I think the FLDS are trying to make the Government look like the bad guys and for the people to see what FLDS does and see what the Government are doing to them like persecuting their Religion. It is looking like it is working thus far.

[anxiousmom]

Frustated,

It doesn't matter if a 13, 14 or 15 yr. old girl "consents" to sexual activity...it is STILL *illegal!*

Even if she has sex with a 17 yr. old boy, the boy could be charged with statutaory rape.

The reasoning is that though a 13, 14 ,15 yr. old girl may say "yes", may want to have sex, etc., she is not mature enough to make that decision.

It is illegal REGARDLESS of one's religion.

[anxiousmom]

Also, a parent can not legally *consent* to their underage child having sex.

[Frustrated]

Good Points.

One can argue that a Normal High School 14 years old having sex with their boyfriends...

Is it still illegal?

To get married at 16, normal teens require a permission from their parents if younger or at 16 years old. It varies in State to State.

But it is illegal to marry at 13. Poloygamy is illegal in all of USA. It is illegal to marry at any age upwards to 16 years old. If they wish to get married, they require the parent's consent.

The problem with FLDS Children, at such young age, they think it is OKAY To have sex and get married at such young age. They think it is OKAY!

Then I remember back in History, you will find plenty of 14 years old married and pregnant in the 18th Century, and even way back 15th Century.

One can argue that there are many, many 16 years old got married during the 50's, 60's and 70's....My mother was married at 16 years old. My neice was 15 years old when she got preganant and later has 3 children today.

They all consented. But we can argue that 13 years old is too young to be pregnant and married to a 50 years old. But I can find 13 years old girl who was pregnant two years ago, she is right in my town. She had sex with her Boyfriend one year older than her, 13 years old with 14 years old Boy. Yes that is unfortunate. And now she has second baby already. She was 13 years old barely not even in High School yet.....She is one of the Teen Pregnancy's Statistics.

People are going to pull the Statistics in Court and CPS will be having hard time proving this is Child Rape on these FLDS Children and they said no to sex. One will have a hard time that there is Statutory Rape here, but no one is pointing the fingers.

HENCE THAT'S WHY THE DNA SAMPLES COMES IN, THE CPS ARE USING THIS SO THEY CAN BUILD UP CRIMINAL CASE CHARGES AGAINST THE PPL INVOLVED FOR STATUTORY RAPE BUT MISLEADING THE FLDS FAMILIES THAT THIS IS SOLEY USED AS A PURPOSE TO IDENITIFY PARENTAGE. THAT'S WHY THE FLDS FAMILIES ARE NOT GIVING OUT DNA SAMPLES BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY ARE BUILDING UP CRIMINAL CASE CHARGES USING THESE DNA SAMPLES. IF THEY FIND THE PERSON AND POINTS THAT'S THE PERSON THEN BINGO BANGO, THEY ARE CRIMINALLY CHARGED!
THAT'S WHY THE COURTS WILL THINK THIS WILL BE INADMISSABLE IN COURTS BECAUSE MISLEADING THE PEOPLE OCCURED WHILE THEY SAY THAT IT IS SOLELY PURPOSE ONLY FOR DETERMINING PARENTAGE.

I think there will be criminal charges against the involved that caused illegal polygamous child rape to 13 yrs old to 50 years old. but that goes back to having to prove that this is the case of child rape. we are looking at the most complicated cases in all of history. if the child did not testify, did not say this is child rape, said nothing happened, and said this is normal by their religion standards then they will have a difficult time to build a case against them (FLDS Families).

[Frustrated]

On the News, now the people are talking about the Hoaxed call from supposedly "Sarah", the black woman who has had a history of false reporting, also did the same pattern in the past before. Now the People are saying this is not the right thing to do to remove the 400 Children based on the hoax call.
But :

CPS testified on the News saying "It does not matter because we made a discovery that there were Child Abuse with underaged Children".

No Criminal Charges yet as of today, awaiting for DNA Samples to be concluded within a month or month and half. My thoughts their intentions for determining Parentage is not the only intention of the CPS's, but the other intention is to file Criminal Charges once they find the perpretrators in these Cases.

[donita]

My husband waited for nearly half a year for the state to file charges. finally he had the congressman push them to file charges or drop the case, if I remember correctly, they did drop the case, but that still didn't get my daughter home. CPS kept her until we moved states, saying they believed something bad was going to happen. I don't believe CPS was able to collect money when we moved states, and that is why they let her come home.

donita

[Frustrated]

Yes, that's something we all have heard before. It is like something like "risk of future abuse" this and so and so...
I would like things within CPS Agency, where they have to prove it with evidence they have. They didn't have to prove it. No evidence. Just their thoughts. I would like to see a Reform on this.

What about Statute of Limitations on all of this? How long can they wait till they can formally charge a person of a crime?
It's a real good question for this Case as well.

[Michael]

[size=18]Many of the children have pre-existing medical conditions when they came into CPS TMP. Since My Shingles Immunization is up to date I ended up working with some of the childern.

Determination of age. The age was determined by a combination of 1. Asking the individual, 2. Asking the identified parent, 3. a CPS experienced worker and 4. Examination by medical care providers. In some cased the OB/GYN is the one that stated that a woman was actually only 14 or 15 and had previously had a child. No CPS worker made any physical examinations unless they are a licensed RN, or MD.

All medical examinations and determinations of age are subject to review by the child's attorney and also the court.[/size]

[Frustrated]

Micheal:

Then what is your say on this Article ? The Ages in Court, states that they are 17. Only three that are pregnant, but one acknowledged only one, and that is 17 years old turned 18.

FLDS attorney challenges Texas count of pregnant minors from polygamous sectBy Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/26/2008 05:14:10 PM MDT


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Why authorities wanted to search FLDS templeSAN ANGELO, Texas - An attorney for FLDS families in Texas challenged the state's allegations of a "pervasive pattern" of underage girls having children, saying the state's own documents show just three teenagers in custody are pregnant.
Of those girls, one will turn 18 in a few months and another merely refused to take a pregnancy test, said Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney representing families at the YFZ Ranch. "That leaves us with one," he said.
Parker also said Friday that one state document includes a woman whose first child was born more than a decade ago. He said he based his statements on a copy of a list created by an investigator for Texas Child Protective Services. "I Photo gallery
FLDS kids are loaded on busses, headed for group homes.
challenge CPS to come forward with the pregnant minors," said Parker.
Investigator Angie Voss submitted the chart last week during a two-day court hearing to bolster the state's contention that all children at the ranch were at risk of abuse. The state removed 462 children from the Eldorado ranch, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, earlier this month. The last children were moved out of the San Angelo Coliseum and Wells Fargo Pavilion on Friday. The children are now in group and foster homes across Texas.
The count of children in custody rose again Friday after CPS determined that 25 girls who claimed to be adults are actually minors, said spokesman Chris
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Van Deusen. That group may overlap with the 20 listed in the court document as pregnant or as mothers, he said.
"The only thing we can say is we're aware of 20 young girls who became pregnant when they were between the ages of 13 and 16," Van Deusen said. "That's not to say that there are 20 now, but at the time they conceived they were 13, 14, 15, or 16. "That establishes that there was some sexual abuse here," he said.
Van Deusen said the court document may not include minors identified as pregnant or mothers since the court hearing. He also said he could not talk about investigative results that haven't been made public in court or otherwise.
One CPS document reviewed by The Salt Lake Tribune lists just three pregnant teenagers. The court document, also reviewed by The Tribune, includes women who became mothers before the FLDS' move to Texas or before the state raised the age of marriage, with parents' permission, from 14 to 16 in 2005. The chart does not indicate whether the women are legally married or the ages of the children's fathers.
Among them: One woman, now 30, listed as having given birth to her first child in 1993 when she was 14. A reference to this situation was made by a CPS investigator without explaining when the pregnancy occurred during the two-day court hearing in which Judge Barbara Walther made her decision to keep the children in state custody. Parker said one CPS list shows some of the minors in state custody are or are about to become adults. One girl sent to a Baptist emergency shelter turned 18 nearly two weeks ago, he said.
"They need to let those people out," Parker said. Parker also refuted CPS' description of an orderly, calm separation of mothers and children at the coliseum. He said it was "complete pandemonium."
As the children, all younger than 5, figured out what was happening, they started screaming and CPS workers had to pry many away from their mothers. "This is inhuman. This is un-American," said Parker, who also said a civil rights lawsuit is possible.
He also said CPS assured nursing mothers they would be able to take breast milk to their infants but, as of early Friday, had been given no information on where the children had been taken. They also were told sibling groups would be kept together. Thirteen children from one family were sent to five locations, he said.
All the FLDS men and many women, some of whom returned Friday, remain on the ranch. "There is a real singular mind-set at the ranch right now to get these children home," he said.

[Frustrated]

You can read better on this News Article from:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9056589

[Frustrated]

News Article posted on (In the News_Boards) stated that CPS had lost two boys, and don't know where they are?

16 months old and 11 years old Boys, can't be found during the last load of the Bus with FLDS Children on it. CPS of course wouldn't comment on this.

Where are they? I surely hope this is not a case of "Adoptions" where they send them off secretly to God who knows where? It is sounding and strikingly similar to Florida where they lost a Florida Girl. The Florida Girl has not been found yet. CPS Worker there in Florida stated they don't know where she is. Just Lost.

It is sounding the same all over again. And CPS has lame same old story over and over...don't know and wouldn't comment.

2 children missing? No wonder they can't protect and/or can't keep track of ever so growing count of 467 Children now in their Custody. They kept on Counting!!! The numbers kept on climbing once they declare the Adults to "Children". It is absurd. If the supposed children said they are over 18. That's that. Don't believe them. I thought CPS should believe the Children on what they have to say. I guess that's not the case anymore.

What's Next? I hope nothing happens to 467 Children. I hope they don't end up in Hospitals being really sick....or worse, deaths. Or being Abused in their Care. Better not. Or we will be looking at major Lawsuits against CPS.

[donita]

All of us, across America, who have had our children removed from us, are well aware of the lengths that CPS will go to justify thier actions. They have created a system where it is virtually impossible for victitimized families to hold them accountable.

The local lawyers work deals with the guardian at litems
The guardian at litems work deals with CPS
The judges, most day, just go with the flow.
The parents are only heard IF they say and do the things that fit the flows and the deals. The parents are punished (or thier children are punished) if they attempt to rock the system.

I'm thinking that perhaps in this case, thier good-ol-boy system of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours is too big for any of them to handle. The case is too visible and there are so so many lawyers involved. I'm hopeful, but not too hopeful because I've come to realize that society really doesn't care that much.

I wonder if they will come to care when they realize that it was thier apathy that aided in another religious enemy. What does the world think is going to happen as a result of taking as whole religious communities children. Have I gotten over it? Have you gotten over It? We are just one family at a time, they are a whole sect of people.

I think they (government agencies) have lost thier minds but maybe, just maybe, there will be a group of lawyers willing to rock the system on behalf of all American families.

I can hope and I can pray
donita

PS.
The CPS system is so messed up that two children will not be the only children lost and if the FDLS hasn't kept records either, then who's going to tell. Foster children are the most vulnerable children in this country and preditors know it.

[Frustrated]

I have watched Dateline NBC on Sunday night. I have to say by watching FLDS Families, their account of that day in question is a great ordeal seperating children from its Mothers.
Something caught my eye, and the FLDS Father said the whole thing might have been a fabrication from day one. I watched how FLDS Mothers showed photos, showed all the rooms, accounted about that day, and all the threats that CPS had told them, if you go back to the Ranch, you will NEVER see your Kids again. Gave them papers on parenting, what the world? If they have lots of women helping out, why need parenting for? They had HELP! FLDS Lawyer stated that there is no underage minors pregnant or married. He also stated, it might have been decade old cases where the law allows it. By that time, the Law have been changed.
With the Hoax Call, they say it doesn't matter. They found legitimate reasons to see that there was Child Abuse. It could very well be a Fabrication to shake their Religion and close it down.
Where were the Search Warrants? The FLDS Leaders asked them where is it? The Texas Officials said they "didn't need one".

Then there is my thoughts, since they paid Taxes, filed Welfare because some of the Girls are not married or no longer living with their Mothers, etc...I am thinking since the Government does Income Taxes Records, and I wonder if there are names, ages, addresses on the Income Taxes, including the children's ages, etc...
What about those Census Takers where they are to count the people for its population, they require to take names, ages, and which households. Would they have such records? I wonder....What about the Welfare Records that shows their ages, names, etc....? That would help confirming their actual ages. And who they are really with. Three Records...Census, Welfare and Income Taxes, will find who they really are. I would be compelled to investigate those records to confirm their ages, names, etc....it would have been made easier!!! I am sure FLDS Lawyer will use those Records, along with their actual Birth Certificates. Sect. Mothers said they have papers to back up the ages, and an actual birth certificates.

A Fabrication from day one. I believe it, because the Government and CPS are capabale of it. They do it best, by cheating, fabricating records. They have done it before in the past. Since then, they could not vouch for 13 years old who is pregnant in the court documents, only ONE so far, the 17 years old who turned 18. CPS are capable of lying, covering up, being sleuthing, mislead (ALOT), fabricate. All of us have experienced that first hand and had seen it firsthand. We know what CPS are all about. They are not the most honest people you can meet with, possibly worse than politicians. They seperated families for a Century. I am sure the USA is the most diversed family tree entangled into Adoptions, and Foster Care, it is all a big mess where Kids will never find their birth parents later at age 20. They will make sure the Adoptions are sealed. Adult Kids has been known to try to find their heritage and parents. But it was torn so much and the pain is still there and raw. Yes, it is inhumane. That's a good word to sum it all up.

[Frustrated]

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/TimeLine.php


I took a look at the FLDS Website, with all the timelines...I praise for their detailed information. I noticed that 6 women who sought shelter did not stay there long, only for few hours then moved to somewhere, at a "friend's house". Xrays taken, Mothers misled with information, threats of "if you go back to ranch, you will never see your kids again" kind of things. Damages to the doors at the Compound. lots of computers confiscated, documents, they took everything out of the compound without a search warrant of seizure and search. They didn't have a Warrant. They just went in and took everything. Even family photos.

I noticed the answers and questions:

Welfare is there because there are few handicapped and retired senior people at the Compound. That's why they are receving their social security incomes and disability pensions. Did not say that mothers receive them.

In addition to that, that the Mothers are not forced into marriage, and is free to leave by her choice, no force there.

Also to take a look at the Videos, it made me cry, look at these happy children, they all have smiles. Looks like they had fun there, even they have paintings on the desk where a child handpainted with fingers. They do have art! not like what CPS claimed they had no arts....they do HAVE ARTS. They draw. Look at the Videos, it shows child drawing a painting. All smiles. Look at the Mothers and Fathers bonding with them. How can >CPS take away from those bonds?

Look at the Video labelled "Sad Captive Children", WOW, CONVINCING EVIDENCE. CPS gave a pail for them to bathe their babies? No showers at that Colseium? Look at the cots, and one boy looks like he was getting sick with a pail beside his cot. Plenty of children being sad and even crying. How did they get these pictures, I wonder. From happy children at the Compound to the Captive children, they do look pretty glum and sad.

[Frustrated]

wow, after reading more on that article, all of their cell phones were taken away and the girls were subjected to xrays, physical and sexual examinations. One of them cried. No one wants a sexual examination. Not even the Ladies, we don't like it. even put that on a small girl, is inhumane.

Also the Sect. Children and Mothers were tagged like cattle production at the Coliesum. One of the mothers refused to be tagged, repeatedly asked for her Lawyer, then try to convince her to get tagged. She refuses. Then they say that she can take it off after once she gets inside. Then they try to put a tag on her 2 yo child, the child was swirming and crying, CPS workers had to restrain him to get him tagged.
GEEZ, treating them like Cattles!!!! Shame on CPS.

Then to accuse the women 22 years old thinking they are underage minors. CPS workers seperate the girls and questions them about their ages. then to accuse the older woman for trying to be younger. Ages are a faction problem here, and CPS workers don't believe their ages? If the girls say they are that. They ARE THAT age! Why would they lie? FLDS are taught not to lie. They have to be honest according to Mormon beliefs.

Reading after all of these, I feel like being put in prison there. It was uneasy feeling from a happy place to a dreadful place where they poke and prod into your bodies. touching, and all more touching.
Not to mention to EXTENSIVE Questioning, holding the girls all day and did not return them till 10 PM. Badgering them, pushing them, ask questions over and OVER!!! That's bad enough.

Then when they did not have enough, they call the girls back in again to get examined again! Full body xrays. That's extensive. too much. Again, and again, with questions, medical examinations, not once, but two, three and four times in a row.

[donita]

I do not understand how these girls and children do not have a constitutional right to refuse to be physically examined. If they say "no" I do not want you to touch my body. How in the world can they justify touching them?

Who's the preditors? I think I'm going to throw up!

donita

[Frustrated]

That's right. If these girls said NO, don't touch my body, and refused pregnancy tests, they are protected under the Consitutional Rights and they were violated.

Did you know that CPS did an "eyeballing test" to line up the girls to take a look at them to determine their ages!!! JUST BY LOOKING AT THEM!!!!
That is NOT ACCEPTABLE FORM TO DETERMINE THEIR AGES. They could very well be 18. or even actual 22 but they put 22 into minor groups. I think the girls are being held against their wills. They are being held as hostages. I am sure the girls voiced the wish to go back home but was repeatedly ignored.

I am looking for many Consitutional right violations by CPS. If Sect. FLDS has actual State Birth Certificates for these girls and if they are actually between 16 to 18, and they are indeed married. FLDS are getting ready to sue CPS with severe lawsuits.

Now they are swaying from possible sexual abuse and changing venues to physical abuse using xrays' of broken bones. Many kids play outside and break their arm or legs. I broke my wrist and my arm 3 times and wore a cast, it will show up on xrays that I had broken my arm falling down from roller skates. Kids can get hurt from playing outside. If you take a look at videos at :

http://www.captivechildren.org

and press on Videos, you can compare from Happy Children from the Compound to....Sad Captive Children. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
yes....they do have ART!! It shows on the video one of the child finger painting a picture of an apple. Children were all SMILES then next...OMG, at the Colesium, they were given PAILS to bathe their children? and the cots, over crowded, children crying....a kid had a pail beside his bed, he looks like he is going to throw up.
NO WONDER THE CPS AND TEXAS OFFICALS TOOK AWAY THE CELL PHONES BEFORE IT WAS POSTED ON THE VIDEOS!!! They want to silence everybody....shhhhhh don't tell the World that CPS are abusing them.
Yes, CPS are truly abusing them by:

Forced medical examinations including vagnial examinations
Forced pregnancy tests
EXTENSIVE Questionings, all day and was brought back to the Colesium at 10 PM. Questions was repeated over and OVER!!!
Forced seizure of their cell phones where it was being used to call their Lawyers.
Forced the Girls to stand in a line up to do "eyeballing tests" to determine their ages by looking at them.
Forced the Children and the Women being tagged and treated them like Cattle Prods in a Production Line....
Seperate all the children in 16 different locations, siblings seperated.
Threaten the Mothers "If you return to the Ranch, you will never, never see your children again"
Served and Forced the Children Pizzas on the table, and the Children left the Pizzas UNTOUCHED. They don't eat processed meats or other processed foods.
Possible forced deprogramming on the children, saying bad parents doing this to you....that type of things.
Not communicating with Children's Lawyers, possibly not sharing information with the Lawyer's of the Children's well doings.
I am sure many stuff was unconsitutional going on behind closed doors.
Just to name a few, and I am sure many of them were unconsitutinal.

Yes it makes me want to throw up. Doing these to the girls forcibily using medical examinations is inhumane. If they said No, that's Rape by forcing them to take these tests. They are being mentally raped, and pschyically by Doctors, CPS and Nurses...I cannot imagine anybody touching me! It is Pschlogically Abuse.
I am sure the Foster Care is not exactly up to date, and the Kids are getting sick...

6 children went to the Hospital thus far. One Sect. Mother was 18, when she gave birth to a baby boy. Both were being held in Foster Care. Must be all the stress and caused an early birth, who knows? I think the whole thing is stressful by itself on these poor Children. They Cry, wondering, and worry if they will ever see their parents again.

Even the Attorneys were seen CRYING at the Colesium!!! They saw how the children looked....so sad and "being violated" mentally and pschyically by medical examinations. They put their heads down because they know they were already violated. They were lined up like cattles and in the stables and was told to lay down on the table without explainations...just like that! Here, pee in a cup. I know I wouldn't do it. It's violating and immflammatory.

[Momoffor]

While I dont agree with how the events unfolded, and I dont think that many would, and everyone has their own opinion of how it could have been handled better, you have to take a moment and ponder things.

You arent talking about a community of Amish that dont break the law, live in peace, and were minding their own business when they suddenly found themselves part of a raid for no good reason.

The 'call' that prompted the search wasnt the only thing that factored in here. This CULT had been watched for quite some time, but had no grounds to make a move. The call is wht gave them grounds.

They DID have a search warrant to go in and look for the girl that placed the call. Once there, the situation grew in size and other warrants were obtained.

There are just as many articles out that discredit the CULT claims, as being propganda, they are looking for public sympathy ect. I can find just as many articles to counteract the ones that FDLS posts. There supposedly are confidential informants who have left the sect, that gave police the information on where to find specific items ect.

The mothers are not innocent bystanders in all of this, they are PART of it. They breed children at a young age to breed children at a young age. This is their way of life.

Someone at work said today that if they want to live they way they were thats fine let them live that way. Perhaps if this were another country sure whatever, thats up to that country to decide, but this is the United States, we do have rights, but we also have laws. They broke the law in more ways than one. There cannot be lawlessness here. If it is allowed for one, hell, we might as well throw the books away and have zero laws to govern at all. ITS WRONG, LAWS WERE BROKEN. Its not even just about polyagmy!

Speaking of rights ...what about the rights of those young girls that are married off to use as breeding machines? Where are their rights?

Amish communities let their teenagers go out in the modern world and make the decision of weather they want to live the Amish life, or lead a life in the modern world. I bet money those teen girls in the CULT were never given the same options.

[donita]

Momoffer,

I agree with you. We are a country of laws, and honestly, I can't think of another way in which to teach the FLDS that they must obey the laws of the land. The children have to be taught this too. My heart truely greives, however, for those families. And it is just as disturbing to me to watch the coldness with which this is all being carried out. Those people obviously believe their religion because this is not the first time they have faced government intervention. Those interventions has only taught them to be more cunning. I just hope this religion doesn't come to hate us as much as Jehaudists do.(I can't spell that word) Because, what could one person do to another person, that would cause more hate than violating their children.

When I gave birth to my children, I beleived that they were mine and that living in America meant that I could raise them according to my beliefs and traditions until they grew up and became adults, able to make thier own choices. Of course, the thought of a grown man touching one of my children is violently repulsive to me and I agree with the laws of our land regarding it. I even agree that legal intervention must occur to protect the laws of the land. But the law of the land must, and I emphisize the word MUST, have checks and balances. CPS does not have enough checks and balances.

If "we the people" don't hold their subjectivity under the microscope, then the law enforcement agencies get lazy and allow poorly trained or battle fatiqued agents to facilitate worse atrocities than the ones originally perpetrated. This very web site gives overwhelming testimony to the existance of that fact. At the end of the night, we cannot just pick a side, turn off the TV, and go to bed thinking that those children are safe now. CPS has taken on a huge responsibility and if they don't follow through and make good on the rescue of these children, then all they have done is release hate and vengence into our communities.

donita