The children come first. The goal is reunification.
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MR SULLIVANA QUESTION QUESTION SWHY ARENT YOU MAN ENOUGH TO ANSWER SOME ONES QUESTION WITH OUT TRYING TO START A FIGHT
trainer
Dan says "Taking a parenting class implies someone is trying to be a better parent. I think not taking a parenting class implies the parent believes their skills couldn't be improved."
Dan, since when did being a parent or raising children become a text book topic? Last time I check there was no manual to this. And btw,, most persons giving such classes are people who have no children, so how can you teach something you know nothing about, I would want a surgeon operating on me if he didn't know what he was doing,,, ofcourse raising children is different, but you can't teach what you've never done.
Dan, since when did being a parent or raising children become a text book topic? Last time I check there was no manual to this. And btw,, most persons giving such classes are people who have no children, so how can you teach something you know nothing about, I would want a surgeon operating on me if he didn't know what he was doing,,, ofcourse raising children is different, but you can't teach what you've never done.
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RKeyser, I think the point Dan was trying to make was that educating yourself is always a plus. It does not mean that you are admitting guilt or admitting bad parenting skills. It simply means that raising children these days is challenging, and not at all the way it was "back in the day" and that you as a parent are utilizing all the options available to enable you to raise a productive form of society. Although I am an old school parent and I do not agree with most of how things are done now, I still read up on new techniques and even try some. I think we as a society have reversed the roles so to speak. We make excuses for our kids and most don't teach their kids accountability for their actions. Now people just run to a lawyer and sue. It seems no one wants to own up to their own actions. Anyway...
Bob, if Bruce is not of any concern of yours why do you still check the HHH yahoo group? Seems to me that while you say all the negative things about him/HHH you are the one continuing to keep tabs on everything. Someone once told me that, when dealing with children, the one yells the loudest/longest, is usually the one thats wrong. Perhaps that applies to adults also. This is not about any one individual, its about the families and most important the children that are being hurt every single day. You feel the way you feel, which obviously differs from certain people both here and on other boards. Guess no one ever taught you that when you point a finger at someone you have more than one pointing back at you.
And please don't flatter yourself, no one discusses "your case".
Bob, if Bruce is not of any concern of yours why do you still check the HHH yahoo group? Seems to me that while you say all the negative things about him/HHH you are the one continuing to keep tabs on everything. Someone once told me that, when dealing with children, the one yells the loudest/longest, is usually the one thats wrong. Perhaps that applies to adults also. This is not about any one individual, its about the families and most important the children that are being hurt every single day. You feel the way you feel, which obviously differs from certain people both here and on other boards. Guess no one ever taught you that when you point a finger at someone you have more than one pointing back at you.
And please don't flatter yourself, no one discusses "your case".
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RKeyser wrote: Dan says "Taking a parenting class implies someone is trying to be a better parent. I think not taking a parenting class implies the parent believes their skills couldn't be improved."
Dan, since when did being a parent or raising children become a text book topic?
Since the first person wrote a book on "Parenting."
RKeyser wrote: Last time I check there was no manual to this.
You mustn't have checked in a while.
A Google search shows 108,000,000 hits on "parenting."
RKeyser wrote: And btw,, most persons giving such classes are people who have no children,
I'm not sure that's true.
Post a link to that, will you, please.
RKeyser wrote: so how can you teach something you know nothing about,
You think someone can't teach parenting unless they were a parent?
They could have learned from someone who was a parent.
They could have learned because they had parents.
They could have read some of those 108,000,000 references that showed up in my Google search.
They could have read books.
RKeyser wrote: I would want a surgeon operating on me if he didn't know what he was doing,,, of course raising children is different, but you can't teach what you've never done.
Parenting isn't surgery.
And a parenting class teaches basic parenting skills.
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mushiesmom wrote:why do you still check the HHH yahoo group?
I read all the CPS forums. Bruce isn't the only one posting on the HHH forum. Besides, you never know when he might post something informative. Even Dan posts some very good information at times, so does Bruce, as cryptic as it often is. You don't mind do you?
I often try to write informative posts on the LIFE forum, do you ignore it just because it's me?
mushiesmom wrote:You feel the way you feel, which obviously differs from certain people both here and on other boards.
Obviously, it's called independent thinking as opposed to groupthink, you should try it sometime.
mushiesmom wrote:Guess no one ever taught you that when you point a finger at someone you have more than one pointing back at you.
C'est la vie, is that a problem for you? Thanks anyway for looking out for my interest.
mushiesmom wrote:And please don't flatter yourself, no one discusses "your case".
Bruce knows my case very well and he has already discussed it with others, so don't be ridiculous, I know better. Regardless, it's his right to discuss anything he likes, convoluted or not.
Do you feel you need to protect Bruce's interest every time I mention his name? I know Bruce, he's a big boy, he can speak for himself, I don't think he needs your help.
Send him my regards since you're his spokesperson and wish him and his family well for me. Thanks Krista.
I know by questioning people Dan,, and I don't care how many books some person puts out there is no science to raising kids, books do not mean they are some kind of expert at anything.
and mushiesmom, you can take all the advice from a book and be the worse parent in the world because parenting is not a text book issue!! I wouldn't put any stock in the crap in those books,,, no manual can tell you what it's like to have and to raise a child!
Just because someone writes a book does not make it a fact,
"You think someone can't teach parenting unless they were a parent?
They could have learned from someone who was a parent.
They could have learned because they had parents.
They could have read some of those 108,000,000 references that showed up in my Google search.
They could have read books"
case and point,, if they learned from their parents wanna put a bet on whether their parents got it from a book? I bet you would lose!
I could care less what an internet site would say about how to be a parent, cause lets face Dan it ain't all true what you see on the internet, is it Dan? I mean acording to the "internet" you don't excist. Many people have looked it up and there is no Dan Sullivan in Long Island, NY.
and one more thing darlin,,, if it is harder to raise kids today than in the old days it's cause many people aren't raising their kids,, they hire someone else to do it for them!
and mushiesmom, you can take all the advice from a book and be the worse parent in the world because parenting is not a text book issue!! I wouldn't put any stock in the crap in those books,,, no manual can tell you what it's like to have and to raise a child!
Just because someone writes a book does not make it a fact,
"You think someone can't teach parenting unless they were a parent?
They could have learned from someone who was a parent.
They could have learned because they had parents.
They could have read some of those 108,000,000 references that showed up in my Google search.
They could have read books"
case and point,, if they learned from their parents wanna put a bet on whether their parents got it from a book? I bet you would lose!
I could care less what an internet site would say about how to be a parent, cause lets face Dan it ain't all true what you see on the internet, is it Dan? I mean acording to the "internet" you don't excist. Many people have looked it up and there is no Dan Sullivan in Long Island, NY.
and one more thing darlin,,, if it is harder to raise kids today than in the old days it's cause many people aren't raising their kids,, they hire someone else to do it for them!
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RKeyser wrote: I mean acording to the "internet" you don't excist. Many people have looked it up and there is no Dan Sullivan in Long Island, NY.
Have you ever heard of a map?
There may be one on the internet.
Find New York state.
Look at New York city.
See Brooklyn and Queens?
They are on the western end of LONG ISLAND.
At the other end of LONG ISLAND are Nassau and Suffolk counties.
I live in Suffolk county.
ON LONG ISLAND, not IN Long Island.
Long Island is named that because it's an ISLAND.
It's not a city, town or village.
And BTW there are at least three Dan Sullivans in the town I live in, and I'm not related to any of the others.
So good luck finding me.
Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.
Dan Sullivan wrote:Dan Sullivan wrote:Taking a parenting class implies someone is trying to be a better parent. I think not taking a parenting class implies the parent believes their skills couldn't be improved. And I think a Judge is going to assume every parent's skills could use improvement... and further there had to be a valid reason CPS brought them to court. I think it's a step in the right direction for a parent to get the Judge to view them as a reasonable and concerned person. And it will make the Judge more inclined to accept the evidence the parents submit as proof that CPS and the county attny are mistaken. [/b][/color]
I agree taking parenting classes would be a good idea IF and ONLY if you think your parenting skills arent good enough. Why would I need to take a parenting class if I am alreay a good parent? The judge could also assume that the parent is taking the class because he or she thinks the parent hasnt got a clue on how to parent and that could be used against the parent. The judge in my opinion will have a biased opinion on the parents from the begining, just based on the fact that the parent is standing in front of him, for acusations of abuse/neglect. The parent will have already be guilty in the minds of every one before the truth of the matter is even told.
Dano
"They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys. It has worked well for over two hundred years and we're not using it anymore." George Carlin
mushiesmom wrote:RKeyser, I think the point Dan was trying to make was that educating yourself is always a plus. It does not mean that you are admitting guilt or admitting bad parenting skills. .
Nowadays, submitting yourself to these "services" is the next best thing to admitting guilt in the eyes of the court and CPS.
Dano
"They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys. It has worked well for over two hundred years and we're not using it anymore." George Carlin
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and mushiesmom, you can take all the advice from a book and be the worse parent in the world because parenting is not a text book issue!! I wouldn't put any stock in the crap in those books,,, no manual can tell you what it's like to have and to raise a child!
Just because someone writes a book does not make it a fact,
I did not say it was a fact. Learning about new options/skills can never hurt. Sometimes people can learn from the experiences of others. It happens all the time right here on this board. I never knew this (CPS) was such a big issue until it happened to me. Looking back, I would have gladly paid $29.95 to read about it and maybe handled things a bit differently based on what others have gone thru before me. Knowledge is a good thing. And even surgeons keep up on new techniques and advancements.
and one more thing darlin,,, if it is harder to raise kids today than in the old days it's cause many people aren't raising their kids,, they hire someone else to do it for them!
I am not one of those parents, I raise my own kids. And I think the problem goes way deeper than that. It probably has something to do with the fact that some people are just plain scared to discipline their kids for fear of CPS involvement, with the fact that our public school teach our kids that yelling is "emotional abuse" and lets not even get into spanking. Based on todays standards of what is considered abuse, its a wonder EVERYONE 25 and over is not in some type therapy. JMO[/quote]
Just because someone writes a book does not make it a fact,
I did not say it was a fact. Learning about new options/skills can never hurt. Sometimes people can learn from the experiences of others. It happens all the time right here on this board. I never knew this (CPS) was such a big issue until it happened to me. Looking back, I would have gladly paid $29.95 to read about it and maybe handled things a bit differently based on what others have gone thru before me. Knowledge is a good thing. And even surgeons keep up on new techniques and advancements.
and one more thing darlin,,, if it is harder to raise kids today than in the old days it's cause many people aren't raising their kids,, they hire someone else to do it for them!
I am not one of those parents, I raise my own kids. And I think the problem goes way deeper than that. It probably has something to do with the fact that some people are just plain scared to discipline their kids for fear of CPS involvement, with the fact that our public school teach our kids that yelling is "emotional abuse" and lets not even get into spanking. Based on todays standards of what is considered abuse, its a wonder EVERYONE 25 and over is not in some type therapy. JMO[/quote]
"I am not one of those parents, I raise my own kids. And I think the problem goes way deeper than that. It probably has something to do with the fact that some people are just plain scared to discipline their kids for fear of CPS involvement, with the fact that our public school teach our kids that yelling is "emotional abuse" and lets not even get into spanking. Based on todays standards of what is considered abuse, its a wonder EVERYONE 25 and over is not in some type therapy."
to that I can only say AMEN
to that I can only say AMEN
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Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.
sob900 wrote: I agree taking parenting classes would be a good idea IF and ONLY if you think your parenting skills arent good enough.
Don't you think someone who takes a driving course (who hasn't got a ticket in 25 years) to get a discount on their car insurance is reminded of things they knew about driving but just forgot?
Wouldn't 25 years of ticket free driving demonstrate they know everything they need to know about driving?
I know that's not so.
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sob900 wrote:mushiesmom wrote:RKeyser, I think the point Dan was trying to make was that educating yourself is always a plus. It does not mean that you are admitting guilt or admitting bad parenting skills. .
Nowadays, submitting yourself to these "services" is the next best thing to admitting guilt in the eyes of the court and CPS.
Dano
I know for a fact taking a parenting course helps get kids back from foster care.
It's the LEAST someone should do.
Dano, if I told you taking a parenting course would improve your personal situation, would you decline... or take it?????
Think about it.
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Bob_Lynn wrote:sob900 wrote:Nowadays, submitting yourself to these "services" is the next best thing to admitting guilt in the eyes of the court and CPS.
Especially if you sign up for it the minute CPS is investigating you. What does that look like to them?
Excuse me.
But how could anyone know to take a parenting course before a false CAN report was made against them?
You're excused Dan, if you read what I said for comprehension, you would see I said "the minute CPS is investigating you" not before a false report was made. If you also read the legal information page on the LIFE site, you would also know that in Pa. CPS has to tell you're the subject of an investigation (unless certain circumstances) by the CPSL statutes.
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Dan stated "Don't you think someone who takes a driving course (who hasn't got a ticket in 25 years) to get a discount on their car insurance is reminded of things they knew about driving but just forgot?
Wouldn't 25 years of ticket free driving demonstrate they know everything they need to know about driving? "
SO raising children is not like surgery,,, but it is like driving? WOW Dan, what a metaphor
Wouldn't 25 years of ticket free driving demonstrate they know everything they need to know about driving? "
SO raising children is not like surgery,,, but it is like driving? WOW Dan, what a metaphor
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Dan,
The problem with these CPS approved "parenting courses" is they support CPS' philosophy of parenting. As a conservative Christian, I am strongly opposed to most of those philosophies. Now, I wouldn't try to impose my biblically based philosophies on you or anyone else, but I DEMAND that my views be respected; it is, after all, the very ESSENCE of "Freedom of religion" we're discussing here.
As to your question about what I'm talking about, Dan, you consistently ridicule the idea of standing up for your Constitutional rights, as if we were fringe loonies for making such a suggestion. Your advice taken at face value would seem to encourage parents to completely surrender their Constitutional rights and become slaves to the state to facilitate the imminent return of their children. CPS does NOT have the unlimited power that so many suggest; the ONLY reason they have as much power as they do is because people get well intentioned, but lousy advice to just go along with CPS requests (I added the qualifier "taken at face value" because I know that you don't believe in surrendering your Constitutional rights; but a number of posts, taken out of context, would seem to infer that you do). In our case, in fact, we were advised indirectly through a LAWYER to allow CPS in to look around and see that everything was allright, then advise them that they would need a warrant for future searches; had I followed this advice, I assure you our case would not have closed so quickly.
Your approach is not wrong for someone who doesn't mind being a victim for the rest of their life. They will pretty much make themselves subservient to the state by following this advice, though, as appellate court judges are likely to refuse to hear a case where the parent is contesting the validity of court ordered treatments to which they readily agreed.
We need to CHANGE this system, Dan. It's unConstitutional, and it's hurting parents. One recent case I dealt with was one where the school nurse filed a complaint of medical neglect against a parent because the parent forgot to send an epipen to school with her child. The parents got through this with little difficulty, of course, but the fact is, there never should have been an investigation in the first place.
I will not go so far as to say you're a shill for CPS, Dan. I've spoken to you and I know better. But some of your posts could quite easily lead someone to a quite different conclusion.
The problem with these CPS approved "parenting courses" is they support CPS' philosophy of parenting. As a conservative Christian, I am strongly opposed to most of those philosophies. Now, I wouldn't try to impose my biblically based philosophies on you or anyone else, but I DEMAND that my views be respected; it is, after all, the very ESSENCE of "Freedom of religion" we're discussing here.
As to your question about what I'm talking about, Dan, you consistently ridicule the idea of standing up for your Constitutional rights, as if we were fringe loonies for making such a suggestion. Your advice taken at face value would seem to encourage parents to completely surrender their Constitutional rights and become slaves to the state to facilitate the imminent return of their children. CPS does NOT have the unlimited power that so many suggest; the ONLY reason they have as much power as they do is because people get well intentioned, but lousy advice to just go along with CPS requests (I added the qualifier "taken at face value" because I know that you don't believe in surrendering your Constitutional rights; but a number of posts, taken out of context, would seem to infer that you do). In our case, in fact, we were advised indirectly through a LAWYER to allow CPS in to look around and see that everything was allright, then advise them that they would need a warrant for future searches; had I followed this advice, I assure you our case would not have closed so quickly.
Your approach is not wrong for someone who doesn't mind being a victim for the rest of their life. They will pretty much make themselves subservient to the state by following this advice, though, as appellate court judges are likely to refuse to hear a case where the parent is contesting the validity of court ordered treatments to which they readily agreed.
We need to CHANGE this system, Dan. It's unConstitutional, and it's hurting parents. One recent case I dealt with was one where the school nurse filed a complaint of medical neglect against a parent because the parent forgot to send an epipen to school with her child. The parents got through this with little difficulty, of course, but the fact is, there never should have been an investigation in the first place.
I will not go so far as to say you're a shill for CPS, Dan. I've spoken to you and I know better. But some of your posts could quite easily lead someone to a quite different conclusion.
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gideonmacleish wrote:Dan,
The problem with these CPS approved "parenting courses" is they support CPS' philosophy of parenting. As a conservative Christian, I am strongly opposed to most of those philosophies. Now, I wouldn't try to impose my biblically based philosophies on you or anyone else, but I DEMAND that my views be respected; it is, after all, the very ESSENCE of "Freedom of religion" we're discussing here.
As to your question about what I'm talking about, Dan, you consistently ridicule the idea of standing up for your Constitutional rights, as if we were fringe loonies for making such a suggestion.
I don't believe I ridiculed anyone regarding Constitutional rights.
Best, Dan
Re: The children come first. The goal is reunification.
Dan Sullivan wrote:sob900 wrote: I agree taking parenting classes would be a good idea IF and ONLY if you think your parenting skills arent good enough.
Don't you think someone who takes a driving course (who hasn't got a ticket in 25 years) to get a discount on their car insurance is reminded of things they knew about driving but just forgot?
Wouldn't 25 years of ticket free driving demonstrate they know everything they need to know about driving?
I know that's not so.
Come on man, what kind of question is this?
"They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys. It has worked well for over two hundred years and we're not using it anymore." George Carlin
Dan Sullivan wrote:sob900 wrote:mushiesmom wrote:RKeyser, I think the point Dan was trying to make was that educating yourself is always a plus. It does not mean that you are admitting guilt or admitting bad parenting skills. .
Nowadays, submitting yourself to these "services" is the next best thing to admitting guilt in the eyes of the court and CPS.
Dano
I know for a fact taking a parenting course helps get kids back from foster care.
It's the LEAST someone should do.
Dano, if I told you taking a parenting course would improve your personal situation, would you decline... or take it?????
Think about it.
Will it interfere with a well paying job to the point that it costs me my job?
How do you know it will improve my personal situation?
Can it be used against me, if after I take the parenting courses and they in their mind, still dont think I'm good enough?
Is it gaurenteed that taking those courses will get my kids back any faster?
Dano
"They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys. It has worked well for over two hundred years and we're not using it anymore." George Carlin
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