What do u think about 416 children removed? from Texas

[Frustrated]

What do you think about 416 Children removed in State's Custody?
From Eldorado, Texas.

Some one 16 yrs old called the hotline...could very well be anyone especially a government official...or even a CPS Worker. They did not locate her yet.
These are Mormon Families which I think falls on their Religious Rights to practice Mormon.
Children were exposed to physial examination is abuse itself. Its horrific. They were exposed to guns that they never had seen in their whole lives before, especially when its pointed at their faces and were told to get on the bus is emotionally abusive, and mental and possibly long term Psch. damage to all of these Children.

Families' privacy rights violated. They said that the children were exposed to child abuse, sexual abuse and to name a few....
where is the evidence?

And why are they keeping the boys? That does not make sense to me. Are they sexually abused as well? Or it is just to prevent them from marrying young brides?
Again Religious Rights violated on most of them, in my opinion.\

Children were exposed to unsanitary places and ate different foods that are not their own and became sick and even some of them were hospitalized. They are probably in hotels, somewhere else who knows? They say they are at so and so place, but are they really?

The Children are eligible for adoption and foster care.
Who says so?
What about the Mothers? forget them?
What about the belief to uniting and putting families together where they belong?

Where is that man they supposed that is sexually abusing children? They haven't found him.

Most of all what are the Children thinking? They were taught of their religious right and learned the bibles and now placed in State's Custody and they say they don't have to pray? or no reminders to pray at the dinner table? children will wonder why they don't have to pray, as they are not reminded whatosover. They will be exposed to confusion, mental damage and emotional damage. They will be exposed to long term psch. mental damage and possibly PTSD because of the guns and force by Raid.

RAID is NOT the WAY TO GO, in my opinion. There should have been another way to go... to whatever happened to questioning the children like they always do at Schools? Are these Children homeschooled all their lives? OMG, if they are exposed to public schools, they will get confused. Why didn't the Workers question the children before at home? It has to be AFTER??? in state's custody?

What happens if the physical examination, that they found nothing?
they will be in heap of trouble now.

I think in my opinion, they are in a big mess, overloaded of CPS Cases...and Court cases....children needs lawyers....years and years intangling of mess....

Remember this happened before?
in 1955 or 1956 in Short Creek?
There was a movie on this called "Child Bride of Short Creek"
Most of the children were placed in State's Custody and they were adopted out, all of them, and the men were in prison and there wasn't any evidence? Now older ladies who were Short Creek Children today were having nightmares, having PTSD, mental illnesses, pschlogical damaged, etc. They are now trying to go back and uniting their lost families. They are angered about what happened. They could not see their real familes or parents, none whatsover. Was told not to see them.
Families tore apart years later and its happening all over again, just larger Children by 416 children.

If no evidence of sexual abuse, they must be returned to their Mothers. Their Religious Rights are already violated.
Even Goverment acknowleged the Mormons and the Jesus of latter saint days, are LICENSED practice!! This is the Government that said okay, you can be Mormons but you can't do this (so and so whatever).
In my opinion, there was a different country in the Middle East that has had 7 wives.....it is legal. So is USA saying this is illegal?
Where is it in black and white that says so?
Is it unconstutional? or consitutional????
was it violated?
Their Rights or None whatosver.

These Mormons are greatly predjuiced by the USA government. I do not CONDONE sexual abuse, but where is the evidence?
If physcial examination shows nothing, then it is their responsibility to return the children back to the mothers.

Beds in Church? Some priests lives in their own churches. I know of one Catholic Priest lives in his own office to save money of additional house beside the church. It is their own choice.
It could be scargielous marriage bed.
Again, where is the evidence such as DNA Semen, DNA and hair? finger prints? any girls with evidenced sexual abuse such as hymen broken?? Any????

We will see if Court Documents will show that. Or not....it will be years and years before we can know the actual results.

Remember the case in Alymer, Ontario, where Church of God Families had fled to Ohio and Texas???
I wonder if these families are one of the Texas Cases and try to extradict them back to Canada? mmmmm I wonder? It was 100 families from Ontario that fled in fears that CPS will seize their children. It was relating to Spanking years ago. Now they are living in Texas, and Ohio. Some live in Mexico now.

Is the CPS or Government up to something? They did the same thing in Utah a while ago, with Jeffs in Prison for alledged sexual abuse but no proof of that. I don't know the final outcome of that though.

[Frustrated]

Also, I would like to add, that this Case is highly controversial. 416 Children will add up to State Dollars, in Millions of dollars in Services that Families had to take....or even Adoptions 3,000 dollars per head. Foster Care to take in max. 6 children, adds it up. With already Broken CPS Texas Agency. It is alot of money, and it does not come cheep.

FDLS (Mormon families) are well better off feeding the children that would cost State alot of money to feed them. Not to mention Medical Care. etc...etc...maybe even more so, it is good for the Stock Market investment. (sickening but true).

If proof of sexual abuse, remove them but only remove the men that did that, and keep the Mothers and Children together. Why take out Children but keep the Men in?

That does not make sense to me.
I would think it would make sense if the violaters who did the sexual abuse should be taken out entirely and keep Children together with their Mothers only. Children needs their Mothers. It is important part of their development and well beings.

[Frustrated]

Today (April 17), State Court Cases started and the Mormon Families showed up to watch the proceedings. State Attornies are seeking DNA Samples of ALL the Families involved (don't know what that entails) and Pschchyratic evaluations on the children (what for? since they were harmed emotionally and mentally by the guns demanding them on the bus and was told they will never see their parents?) They are more harmed by the State more than their own families.

They have not found 16 years old girl that made the call to the hotline. They did or haven't located the Man that alledgely abused this girl and/or raped the girl.

Why are they focusing greatly on 416 children? This is only one girl that they are targeting on, according to the hotline call. That is what they should focus on. She (the girl) DID NOT SAY that the children were harmed, just herself.

Why are they holding the boys? are they sexually abused as well?

Today, the Attorney is available to defend 2 years old child, I am glad to see that Children's Rights are protected and they have Lawyers. She said that the case is the most difficult as she has not had received any documents on the families and no evidence. She has not gotten anything, and she briefly met the client, as the child could not speak for her/himself. At least the child will be defended against the shark state attornies....

I hope the claims against the Children are not true...again I do NOT condone the sexual abuse, the violater should be paying the crime by going to prison, if the 416 families are not violated, then why should they pay for this just for one man?

State Attornies are asking for stringient (lots) of services that families to take...before their kids are to be returned. Services such as Psch. Evaluations, DNA testings, Sexual physical evaluations....counselling, etc..etc...etc....

State wants the children to be put up for Adoptions and permanent foster care but it will be difficult because the Cases has scrunity of Media Attention....

I am GLAD that this Case has Media Attention...because this is what we do not have. Now people are watching closely on these cases and CPS are now careful how to proceed.....because they remember and never forgotten the case back in 1956 of Short Creek where hundreds of families are lost....and put up for Adoptions. Gone, just like that. Families wrecked in nano second.

I thought we are all for Unification of Families, no?

Media always say "we will see", we also shall see what the outcome of these cases will be. The Children deserve better, and if they want to be back to their Mothers, it should be that way. Why hold them?

If they are indeed sexually abused, then case closed, and they will be protected by the State. No arguement there.

BUT what are we to say if the State and CPS fabricated the records, fabricated and manipulated the cases and falsyifed the records to claim fabricated sexual abuse????

Then what? I surely hope for the sake of the 416 Families that they document their own to protect their own family interests at hand. I hope the Lawyers will protect the Families and not force them to take unnecessary services. The Children looked like they were well taken care of. They had the most basic necessities taken care of.

[Michael]

I have been working with teh children. I am now back home. The large number of pregnant 13, 14, and 15 year old children. In Texas a 13, 14, 15 year old child cannot agee to marriage or sex. The girls are told who they are going to amrry and tehn after the marrage they can be transferred to another man.

The womer are refusing to identify their children or provide names and fathers information. I interviewed three girls about 13 years old (all thre visably pregnant) who gave the same name and refused to identify the father.

Another woman identified one male child as her son and the 10 year old identified another woman as his mother. All three gave different names for the child.

[Frustrated]

What about the Privacy Rights of the Families? and their Religious Rights? Do you acknowlege their Religion and the freedom to practice? Can they practice their Religion in the care of State?
Does CPS has the Sensitivity levels when it come to their Religion?
Are these Children free to pray etc???

I understand the 13 yrs olds, 14yrs olds are pregnant but does that require the Mother's Consent??

I understand by Law, 16 Years old are required with the Mother's Consent? What are the Laws when it comes to Mother's Consents to approve such practice?

Does CPS know that Mormons does these kinds of things in believing in their Religion according to the Bible, to procreate? Does CPS know what Mormons are? There are many Mormons around the world that has had large families such as these. It's their norm. Maybe the rest of the World are sickened with their practice but that's their Religion.
Does CPS have the right to take the Religion out of the Children's belief all of their lives?

I know and fully know this is highly controverisal and predjudiced Case, and very sensitive case. One must understand their Religion before they can pass judgement. One FDLS Family say that this is not what happens in their family, the Media manipulate the half-truths and does not show the other side of the story. This Family say this is highly PREDJUICED against Mormons itself....There are many many different kinds of Religion and many beliefs in many things. The Consitution states that every people has the Right and the Freedom to practice them. Why are there so much hatred towards Mormons?
Around the World, there are many wives to one husband, especially in the Middle East, and what happens if they were to live in USA? Would CPS respect their Religion Right?
It is a good question.

[Frustrated]

I forgot one other thing...very important question.

Since the Children are wearing the Dresses according to Mormon Standards...and now they are in State's Custody. Are they told to wear different clothings? Are they wearing pants first time in their life? or are they still wearing dresses?

I can only imagine the confusion to wearing different clothes that they have never seen in their whole lives. What about their hairs? are they forced to wear different styles now and not in Mormon style?

What about the Boys? Why are they in State's Custody? If they are not pregnant , nor not sexually abused. What is the reason to hold them?
Again really good question.

The FDLS Families said that the children had become really sick and some of them were hospitalized? Were they ever seen a Doctor?
Why did they become sick and hospitalized? Were they forced to eat different foods and the place they were in not hygenic? The foregin germs that they were never accustomed to before has been exposed to them. Does CPS know what foods Mormons eat on a regular basis? Can they again pray at the dinner tables?

[Frustrated]

In the News:

State Court Records shows that there are 10 Women as young teens either married or pregnant.

Then there was a thought I had a thought today thinking about this Case and have several questions that have yet been answered.

1. CPS has been known to manipulate the Media and the Court, fabricating the records, and been known to be lying for years. How do we know if this is the actual truth?

2. If there were 10 women pregnant and being married off pretty young then why is this not being done protected 10 years ago? In other words, why is there nothing being done on this?

3. Why is there a sudden need to focus on the Mormons in time of day? Is this because of 1956 Short Creek Case so they had to go back and revisit?

4. If the Women had truly consented to having sex (sexual consent) with Mother's approval, would that be seen as consensual sex?

5. If these women are truly raped, then by who?

6. Did the man that was wanted by the Federal Government (Barlow from Arizona) rape these women?

7. If the women consented, and had no objections, then what will state their case and how? What are their Rights?

So many questions and no Answers for it.

[Frustrated]

ON LARRY KING LIVE TV SHOW, THE MORMON MOTHERS WHO LOST THEIR CHILDREN TO STATE CUSTODY WILL APPEAR TONIGHT AT 9 PM (Eastern Time). I don't know what Channel everyone is getting but it is LARRY KING LIVE on CNN NEWS on tonight.

Be sure to tune in. Also these Women/Mothers claimed that there are NO Children younger than 16 yrs old that are pregnant or married. They only acknowledged that there are one or several that is above 16 years old.

so....if the Mothers say there are no children less than 16 years old that are pregnant or married, so is the State/CPS lying then?

Why is 16 years old Girl not located yet? Where is she?

Where is this Barlow Man That is possible rapist from Arizona?

[Frustrated]

I watched the Larry King Live Show and I have to say that the News and the Courts and the whole thing had me feeling very troubled and feeling that there is something wrong with the whole thing. That something is not right, my gut feeling.

CPS testified in Courts that contradicts everything else. The Kids don't know their own birth dates? Then how do CPS know how old they are? Oh say...they look like 13 but maybe they are actually 16? Who determines their ages?

Another concerning statement that CPS Supervisor made in Court:

"This is not about Polygamy, it is about Child Abuse".

uh? Which one is it? They are ok with Polygamy? Talk about contradictiory comment. Ok, if it is Child Abuse, where is the evidence that shows that fact? any marks? pictures? any affavidits of children showing that there are indeed child abuse? What about Doctor's statements?
Ok I get it, it is just a hearing. Not an actual Trial.

but during the hearing, the CPS must prove beyond a prepondrance that the Children are in fact in immment danger of harm/future abuse. The FLDS Families needs to have due process and have that right in Court and have their say.

Many Ex-FDLS escaped Polygamous families saying they self-destructed and were subjected to self drugs, prostution, and suicide. Then later wrote a book about it. Which gives them the profit of doubt.
Ok, why didn't this happen 10 years ago? Why now? how about 5 years ago? Did the ex-sect member who escaped report it? She did not report it, until 5 years later? (her name is Jessop, her last name). Here is her story at: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/pol ... cnnSTCText

And now here is this: I don't get the whole thing and something fishy is not right here. I have met Mormons and have seen inside of their buildings, and I don't see anything wrong with them. They are the most nicest people you can meet. They do not have mean feelings in their bones. Just all around peaceful. All about Love and all that. No, I am not a Mormon, but I have lived years beside their homes and have seen inside of their homes.

I think the whole thing is what is going on is this:

Media Wars getting one sided story and CPS gives one sided Story and FDLS Families tries to give their side of the story and gets pushed aside. Hence the propganda war to tell the people that they are bad people. I think there are alot of misinformation out there, just too many to point out and alot of prejudice against FDLS people and its Churches. I think the Case has become overzealous and being quick to judgement and points the fingers at them, saying they are bad people.

Remember the Church Jesus of Latter Saints Day, are ACKNOWLEDGED and been KNOWN to many, and even the Government KNOWS what they are. They are even licensed Religion. If the Government can't CONDONE what Mormons are doing, then why didn't they shut down these Churches? Why do they call them Cults?
Think about it, Catholics Priests has had sexual abuse with the boys/girls for years....and yet no one is not saying they are a Cult.
Why? and Why not? No body took them away to protect them.

But this one, is special to CPS, because the Mormons are undereducated, submissive, and inferior. It makes it easier for them to kidnap Children out of their homes and sell them for Adoptions or put them in permanent Foster Care.

Again, the whole thing is making me feeling very troubled and concerned.

[Frustrated]

Something caught my eye, when I was reading many articles about them, and witnesses testify about them:

Here is and I quote from: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/pol ... cnnSTCText

The FLDS has strict rules, especially for girls: no pants, haircuts, drugs, booze or boys; just "keep sweet" and obey. So young women who leave often delve into worldly pleasures once outside, indulgences as innocent as blue jeans and as destructive as heroin and prostitution, survivors and an expert say.


Okay, when these FLDS Children are in State's Custody, I wonder if they are into re-programming these children and practice "indocrination" into these children by changing them with pants, haircuts, etc...
The question is...would that be harmful to these Children mentally?

I wonder often if that is the case.

And here is this: and I quote:

Joni Holm said it takes five to 10 years for a sect child to learn how to live a life society would deem "normal." Larson said it could take longer. Jessop said she might never be normal.

5 to 10 years!!!! into indocirnating these Children? oh my goodness!!! That's even more harmful than anything else. It gives them pschchological and mental damage for long term!!!! They are already messed up, but time is important and the clock is ticking....I hope these Children can be saved and do what's right by them.

2 weeks and counting...

[rncmomx2]

I have a friend who is 35 and left a group like this, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. These children are married away (most times without moms consent) to other members of the group at 12, 13 or 14. Because the groups are isolated they are often related to each other and then are plagued by genetic misfortunes. I don't think that you want any child to be subjected to treatment like they are. Women are not allowed to do as they want, they are mearly a piece of meat to the men they are "married" to. I don't care what the religion, if you want to wear pants thats not a sin!!! They are brainwashed from day one, how sad is that. Just because they were born into that situation should not mean that they should be punished by being made to stay. Would you want a child to be subjected to abuse just because it may do damage to take the child away from the abusive parents? Sometimes there are no easy choices, you have to pick the lesser of two evils. My friend has been hunted down by private investigaters and had to go into protective custody to keep from being taken back. She had to leave her child with a friend she met outside of the group, so they would be protected. She now has them back, but they lost almost a year with there mom because of these monsters. Yes CPS may be wrong most of the time, but if a child is being made to have sex at 12, 13 or 14 the parents need to be assessed. What type of parent would continue to be a part of a group that they know this is what is going to happen to ther children? I would rather die and reside in hell than to be a part of a "religion" that allows this to happen to a child.

[Frustrated]

I agree with you, like I said, I don't condone any sexual abuse on any children. period.
But this is a complicated, very controversial case, very sensitive and delicate. Even our own Government acknowledge this Religion!! They are all branched out all over the States, even all around the Country and abroad.

If years and years of "deprogramming" and harmful indocirnation on these Children has to take place, then the Church of Jesus of Latter Saint Days (Mormon) must be shut down by the Government and declare them as outcasts. But I am fearful that years and years of indocirnation on these children who has been born since birth has only known this life, no other will not be saved completely, possibly damaged.
Even the 1953 Sect's Children of Short Creek, now called Hillsdale, Utah, hundreds and hundreds were put up for adoptions and perm. foster care. and Years later, the woman who gotten older, was still bittered, mentally distraught by the ordeal. She was 7 when she was taken away. and now she wants to reunite all of her Mormon Families because this is what she knows. She said she still have nightmares. The damage is done.

Even the Child Pschylogist Perry, testified in Court saying and I quote:

Also testifying Friday was child psychiatrist and state witness Bruce Perry, who said FLDS children are taught that disobeying orders leads to eternal damnation and have little opportunity to learn how to make independent choices.

Young children are not mature enough to enter into a sexual relationship or a marriage, he added.

Perry, who has worked with families in groups such as the Branch Davidian sect near Waco, Texas, said that if the children are allowed to remain in state custody, "There have to be exceptional elements in place for these children and their families. The traditional foster care would not be good for these children."

He even acknowleged it is not good for these children to be in traditional foster care. It has to be exceptional elements means extensive, extensive and years and years of therpay which will cost the States Millions and Millions of Tax Dollars. Possibly a special home which will make a transititional home to a normal one.

It costs alot of money. On the Show, we saw on Larry King Live of their sect's homes, I haven't seen cleaniest rooms and they are pretty cleaniest I have ever saw.

There are many emotional damage in all families including the ones who left the homes has succumbed to drugs, prositution etc...etc...

If we must save the children, we must shut down the Religion all together.
Like this way, if we can't condone sexual abuse in Catholic Churches with priests, we must shut down the Catholic Churches as well?

Too many things to think about. These Children are far damaged and far gone. We could try and save them, but the mental and psch. damage by CPS is done on them. They will never forget the guns in their faces, never forget that they had to stay in strange homes, with strange foods, and strangers...they are more fearful than they are in their own homes with their own families.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/pol ... cnnSTCText

[rncmomx2]

I just thought you like to read this, my friend told me about it.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12- ... fruit/full

This is just one of the problems they see, imagine what other problems these children might have.

[Trisha G]

Tonight on the news they said the call might have come from a woman who has a history of false reporting.

[Michael]

First Larry King Show:

Did you notice that every woman's room had a lap top computer in it. The leaders had previously stated that only men had access to computers. This demonstrates that this was a staged tour.

Second photographs of church leaders in all rooms and no photographs of missing children or any mothers.

One room was identified as the room of a mother and her daughter with two other children who lived with her. Where are the mothers of these two other girls. Why are they unwilling to identify the parents of any child.

According to other information the women and children are moved from compound to compound and separated from fathers by the leaders.

Third Women are asking for the return of their daughters and not mentioning sons.

Age will be be determined following physicial examinations by licensed physicians. All children entering CPS care must receive a complete physical, dental examination, TB test (if olde than 1 year) and social assessment.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
4/18/2008 CPS statement:
We are very gratified with today’s decision to keep all the children in temporary state custody because it stops the abuse and keeps all the children safe.

This allows us to keep children safe as we conduct a complete and thorough investigation and provide the physical and mental health services they need.

The children’s safety is our top priority. Our goal is always to reunite children with their parents if we can do so and make sure the child will be safe.

Today’s decision is about the safety of children. It is not a decision about religious freedom. The children will be allowed to worship freely. We respect and value the strong sense of faith these children have. We are not trying to change them; we are trying to keep them safe.

We’ll continue our efforts to identify the biological mother and father of each child, and it is our hope that the parents will work with us to ensure the safety of their children. On Monday, DNA testing will begin for the children and later in the week, testing will be available for the parents.

We’ll begin moving the children into more appropriate placements where we can provide all the services they need while continuing our investigation. We will try to keep children as close to their families as possible so they may see their parents under the conditions outlined by the judge.

Each child will have several people who are looking out for his or her best interests. The children will have court appointed special advocates and attorneys who will monitor their child’s care and progress and report back to the court.

This isn’t the end of the legal process or a final determination on the custody of the children. We will work with the judge, attorneys, special advocates, and hopefully the parents, to make the best decisions we can for the long-term health and safety of the children. We will update the court on the progress of each child's case by June 5
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * *

Having conducted interviews at the fort I expect no fathers will present themselves for DNA testing and few mothers will. Most children will end up having no identified parents.

I alse expect that as soon as they are away from San Angelo the older girls will call the Compound and will disappear back into a compound in Utah, Arizona, Canada, Mexico or some other place and not be seen again for many years. When they turn up at another incident they will only be identified by their DNA and not by giving information to Law Enforcement.

[Frustrated]

Response to Micheal:

Regarding to Computers, this is modern technology of today, most people have computers. Tax Dollars of you and everyone else are paying for their compound, their materials, their computers, and their donations. Even Pentagon paid high dollars to the Male Leaders of Sectarian Groups all around the States, including Utah, Arizona and Texas and possibly Colorado.

You quoted:
Age will be be determined following physicial examinations by licensed physicians. All children entering CPS care must receive a complete physical, dental examination, TB test (if olde than 1 year) and social assessment.

Would that be voluntary or forced examination? What if the children says no? Forced examination on children of all ages can be harmful mentally and pschologically. I know and can say from other children that goes to their family doctors really hated having them look at their private parts, especially in depth including vaginal examinations. I would imagine that would make them uncomfortable. I think to spare them the nightmares of examinations, I would rather the children to be put to sleep, not to be awake during the ordeal. This way, they will not know anything happened to them whatsover. That's my opinion. I would like to see that children would never, ever see the ordeal of being prodded and poked into, and looking into their insides. Foricibale examinations can be harmful for most people. Even Women like me, I don't like doctors giving me pap smears. I don't like it. But it needs to be done to detect Cancer and for Cancer prevention. But for these small children, they don't comprehend like you or me. Imagine the horrors they have to endure all of these examinations. They were never exposed to these modern examinations.

As for the Photos, I have seen one on Larry King Show, you must have missed it, one of the Sect. Mothers showed full Family Album of her children including her births. and pictures of all Families in the Books. It all seemed to look like they were happy, all the Mothers smiling in the photos. And Men photographed as Farmers, Ranchers, Construction Workers, they even worked for the Government and the Military for the money to raise their families. Even more so, on Nancy Grace Show, most of the Sect Mothers were not married, and had appllied for Welfare Cheques and each are giving the money for the Compound and for the Necessities for all the Families. Foods, Materials, Necessities, etc...etc are taken care of for the Families and Children.

[Frustrated]

Thank you Rncmomx2 for this article:

That is true, in most families who are related to each other and being married. This can happen due to gene malfunctions.

Even more so, it is happening all over the World. Not just the Sectarian Polygamists. Like my Small Town where I live, there are everybody related to each other, because the population is so small, under 1,000. There are 2nd Cousins married here. The people here had to look outside the Town into Cities to find people that are not related to them, in order to get married and have no dna malfuctions like having retarted children or other deformities. It is not related to Polygamy. It is happening everywhere.

------------------------------------------------------

Today, I had a thought....it has been bugging me about this Story of Polygamy families in Texas, with all those 400 some children taken into protective custody.

I watched Nancy Grace Show tonight, and I had a thought and agree on one thing:

Polygamy is illegal in the United States right now. It's illegal, period.
I don't know about other countries like Middle East or designated countries that practice polygamy but it does exist. It all goes way back to possibly 18th century, maybe not if, futher back, who knows? Today, very few we see are practicing Polygamy.

Anyways, back to my thought and my opinion, it has been dawned on me today: Child Rapes and Every day Teen Pregnancy

To know the different between those twos:

Child Rapes are when it is forced on them, without their consent, when they say "no", it is Rape. Again, it is illegal and the Rapists are charged by its Crimes and go to Prison.

Did this happen in this Sect. Polygamy Case? Did Child Rapes happen behind closed doors?
Or?

Consensual Sex in Teenagers happens every day!! I see normal 14, 15 16 yrs old having Sex with their boyfriends out there in today's Society. Its unforunate but it does exist. We are seeing many, many Teen Pregnancy, about a 1/3 of High School girls are Pregnant. Even my Neice who was 15 years old got pregnant and years later, she now has 3 children. Even Friends in a small town where I live, many teens are pregnant!!!!! they are only 14, 15 years old!! It happens when they had "consensual sex".

Did these Polygamy Teens have consensual sex? Did they say Okay? Did they say no? goes back to Rape?
Any evidence of that?
We see on the News that some of the Poly Children who are 13, 14 years old were pregnant or married. They refused to name their Father of the baby, and yet they wouldn't give out names of their mothers or vice versa. If they were fearful and were raped, they would have voiced out, or maybe too scared to tell in fears they will become outsiders. Did they get raped? or had consensual sex with their husbands?

Then we go back to Normal Teen Preganancy of every day life in a normal City, not related to Polygamous families in Texas, but you would see 14, 15 years old walking by, laughing, being pregnant. They Consented!
Yes, it is unfortunate. Even my Neice who was 15 years old got pregnant and she did okay by herself. My mother married at 16, and had children, she did okay herself. Many Friends in a small town where I live, it's become a norm. We try to give speeches to Teenagers in Schools, but they don't listen! They have boyfriends and got taken over. They pay the hard price. It's reality.

Why we say Okay, this is a problem, but we are okay with Teen Pregnancy everywhere where they consented and it is not okay for Poly Children who married and consented is not okay?
Yes, you and me can agree it is NOT OKAY for CHILD RAPES. If these Children were forced into Rapes and said no, then it is Child Rape (Sexual Abuse) of any ages. But the question is....

What if they consented? many teenagers out there have hormones driven and get pregnant, in spite of extensive speeches by the Schools and Sex Education Programs, it is not working!!
We teach Abstience, but their hormones speak louder than words. We try the best as Parents try to prevent Teenagers from getting pregnant. They who consented, indeed do have to pay the high price.

Did the Poly Mothers say they taught and prefer that the children wait that they are become of age to get married and have children?
Yes they did in fact said those on the CNN NEWS. They (Sect. Mothers said there are no underage children who are married or pregnant). Most they say, are 16 years and above.
Now we are seeing as CPS "claims" that there are 13 and 14 years old (with no certainty if they were raped or consented) are pregnant and/or married. CPS has testified in Court that the Sect. Poly Children had no knowledge of their birthdates.

Now the question goes back to my thought: and very important one:

Teenager Pregnancy as young as 14, 15, 16 has been an every day norm in our society all over the world, Canada, USA and we have become accustomed to it, and gotten used to it.
Why is it not okay for Poly. Children who are pregnant at 14, 15 years old who had consented into their marriage?
What would we say if they had no force like the Sect. Mothers claimed? They consented? That it s not Child Rape?
Maybe small numbers were Child Rapes, but which one of the 400 Children? all of them? Did they consent? or did they claim Child Rape? Did they say no?
How can we determine those into every day society, that differs two different worlds? ok for us, but not ok for them?[/b]

[Frustrated]

Also another thought:

CPS testifed in Court that they are holding Boys because:

Their quote:

"They are being groomed to be perpetrators".

At what age? I think they meant 13 years and above...but 2 years old boy? By then, the Government will have dismantled their Churches and shut down their Religions or shut down polygamy itself.

Why hold babies for? I don't get it. Are they being raped? 5 years and under are held in protective custody. Are they being raped?
The Lawyers for these Children asked the SAME Question in Court but the Judge had decided there were sufficient evidence to order protective custody on all 416 Children.
To prevent future abuses? By that time, the Government and CPS will or might dismantle their sect' s groups in 10 years time. It's alot of time to deprogram everybody.

Cults are like that way. Not just Mormon Poly. Families, but Cults like Scientiology,Jeova's Witnesses, other stantic cults....are being investigated on a daily basis, and Government work over time to try to shut it down. But the Consitution protects the People's Rights. That's all they have to say and their Rights are protected. Don't forget problems within Catholic Churches where priests rapes children years and years ago. Is it solved?

Remember, this World is all messed up, everywhere you turn, you will see something wrong, and it does not belong there, such as crimes, drugs...prositution, even politicians abuses their powers and CPS messes up the children's minds by taking them away claiming it is in the "best interests of the child's".

Is it really? We see only one side of the story, but we have to see the bigger picture of the whole thing, the whole truth. All of it. But before we have to understand, we have to study what it is...and to understand what they do, just like what you practice in or believe in. Your Catholism or Judiasm, or Buddism, or Jewish, or Muslim...and the list goes on and on.....many people don't understand that Jewish did in fact have 600 Commandments!!!! whereas we only have 10 commandments. I did NOT EVEN KNOW JEWISH has SIX HUNDRED COMMANDEMENTS!!!
But that's called Learning about their Culture, their Religion, etc...

I think the problem, we pass Judgements on many people for so many years, and too quick about it, but we have to learn the whole story about the whole thing before we pass the Judgement on the people. CPS are not capable of understanding, they won't learn the people's ways, their cultures.

What if?.............................
These were Muslims and not Polygamists?
Would that change your views?
Muslims believe in many wives to one Husband. but not sharing children to be married to their relatives. It is married outside of their families. That's the difference.

[Frustrated]

Tonight on the news they said the call might have come from a woman who has a history of false reporting.

Yes, I had seen that on the News, it was from a Woman's house or something, out from Colorado. Supposedly from a 35 years old Woman. Texas Rangers are tracing the call back to her house and are investigating into it. I would not be surprised if it was some one that is wanting to protect these children, or calling for attention, or not even surprised if it was from the Government itself, or CPS Worker even.

To this Day, they could not find this supposed 16 years old Sarah, pregnant with a child that was supposedly have been raped, choked and forced to be married to a 50 years old Man.

But that sounds the same story to Jeffs (a Poly Sect. Leader from Utah) who is currently in Prison for conspiracy to Rape. The girl is also 16 years old and had also testified in Court which landed a conviction of Jeffs and he is currently in Prison. Male Leaders are still visiting him in Prison to get orders and do some errands for him. I would not be surprised if some one out there is trying to cause more aggrivating problems to everyone's to save the children.

[donita]

Frustrated, I have only just now read your whole thread and I have alot of the same questions you do.

I whole heartedly believe that the swooping in to wipe out a whole community is completely unconstitutional. Every single person deserves a chance to face their accuser and every single person has right to his or her due process. they also have a right to a speedy trial. Which I hope these families have the sense to force the authorities to file charges and that they won't just sign a case plan beleiving that completing it will get them thier children back.

If CPS would be a friend to these women by showing them some respect regarding thier beliefs, then maybe some of these women would be able to hear wisdom regarding the world they live in. But you wait and see, even if these women cooperate, they are not going to be given the time of day. The state already considers them mentally damaged, and they don't believe anyone can really recover.

these women are going to learn that the one who has the power is the one who makes the rules and if what is reported about the abusivness of the husbands are true...well it seems they have lost the power and these women have new abusers. because if anyone thinks these women and children are safe in states custody they are so so so wrong. I would even venture to say that more rapes against these girls will occure while they are in the care of the state than would have happened to them at home.

Frustrated, I have another question. Does it seem to you that the fathers are hiding behind the mothers. It seems to me that the only family members publicly fighting for the kids are the moms. Where are the dads. If they are caring husband and fathers why aren't they standing up to protect thier families. You would think that at least one dad would stand up.

what do you think?

[Frustrated]

Good Question Donita.

The Dads are hiding and don't want to be televised in fears to being charged for Sexual Abuse on underaged Children. And there is another aggrivating reason due to their Religion of Mormon. They are seen to be the Leaders, the Clan of the Families. They are powerful Leaders that does not want to be in the spotlight. It is all Religion stuff.

But then I had a thought why the Dads are not EVEN at the SITE COMPOUND, they are elsewhere in Utah and Arizona, Colorado. Why?

Because they were ordered by Warren Jeffs to relocate the children and Mothers to Zion Compound in Texas whereas the Men (Dads) stay behind and do their jobs in Construction, Ranching, Farming but that is not all, the Leaders of Men are to report to the Leader Warren Jeffs and they are seen in Prison visiting Jeffs to get orders from him on what to do.

I often wondered why he ordered the children/mothers to Zion and the rest of the others stayed behind. Some Men are at the Zion and they are not even at the Residence with the Mothers/Children. I heard they don't even sleep with their wives. The Mothers lives with the Children in these rooms. The only they can be seen commating (sexual relations) are at that Church with Wedding Bed.
I don't know why but it is a great question.

I am thinking the Government/CPS are going to have a really BIG BOMBSHELL put on them. I think the relocating of families are a diversion....the real parents are probably at Utah/Arizona and it's like sending Children to Private Schools...they are spread all around four places/states: and their relations to each other would probably will not be connected. That's what I am thinking:

Real Parents at the Utah/Arizona
And the Caregivers (STRONG FAITH BELIEVERS) are sent to Zion to look after their Children from Utah/Arizona.
But then there is Bountiful Town in Canada, they could have been diversed to be living there as well. What about Colorado?

Warren Jeffs only send the strong believers sent to Zion Compound with the Children. The weaks are left behind in Utah/Arizona (called Twin Cities of Hildale and Colorado City, Arizona). I don't know about the Bountiful, Canada though.
I am thinking Warren Jeffs have a Plan up his sleeve and the orders for the Men is to carry them out. Hence the reasons why the Girls/Mothers are not giving out last names/birth dates is the tip of the iceberg.

It's quite a confusing religion to understand, but that's the only thing they believe in and grew up with. They believed they have done nothing wrong.

The Children could very well be 16 years old and pregnant and married, not 13 years old like CPS claimed. CPS have been known for Years in fabraicating records/files to manipulate the outcome to have custody of 416 children to have one reason only:
Put them up for Adoptions/Perm. Foster Care.
They have no intentions to bringing the children back to Mothers, and that's why CPS LIED to the Sect. Mothers promising them that they will be together but weren't.

The Problem I am concerned right now is that the Country of people don't believe that CPS are lying to Sect. Mothers and that CPS are capable of manipulating people. Its because the people are blind, and think they (CPS) are child savers and they are rightesous.
But some day, the People will SEE!! They are watching closely on the Courts and how CPS are doing with these cases. That's why CPS can manipulate the Judge, and the Media. Look what happened. CPS has had won the State Custody of these Children.
Just like that.

[Frustrated]

Yes, I admit the whole case has been bothering me, I had sleepless nights worrying about these 416 Children and the anxiety/seperation of the Children with their Mothers.

It's because I am concerned about the violations of Children's Rights and it just confirms this today that ACLU are greatly concerned about Children's Rights being violated.


Did you see the conditions on the news where the Children are now residing in?
At the Colesium Arena where they play hockey and other games and the Children are sleeping on cots.
I don't know about the foods they are eating, and how they are dressed and treated there. But ACLU are worried and concerned that these Children's Rights are violated and being held against their wishes. I surely hope the overzealous Lawyers who will do pro bono cases REALLY HELP THESE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope it's not the same situation where they will tell the Parents "you have to go along with CPS and do what they tell you to do" kind of things. That would be a bad defense.

I hope the Lawyers will act in the best interests of the children and the Sect. Mothers, not for the Money.

Who will pay for all the DNA TESTS and the Medical Tests such as Dental Examination and Physical Examination including pregnancy tests???

The State paying for them? or the Tax Payer's dollars at work? It does not come cheep and it is not always free.

[Frustrated]

Last Night, I watched Nancy Grace Show again to have more story on FLDS Sect. Families. I found out there are now 437 Children at the Colesium Arena.

that is alot....they described that there are 130 Children under the Age of 4!!! They supposedly determined that the children around 18 or above are really downgraded to "Children". I don't know how they can determine that. But either way, they can hold Children up to age 21. Most children aged out Foster Care by the age of 21.
I am deeply concerned and worried about the Children's Rights at the Colesium Arena. Are they getting sick? Are they eating? Being Isolated? They haven't been outside for fresh Air in the last 2 weeks, they need Sun to nornish their bodies and exercise. They haven't been outside yet. They are isolated in a crowded area, with cots. Such Isolation can cause illnesses, colds, and flus. Sect. Mothers complained that the children are getting sick now. They never ate foods that are processed, or of worldly foods, never ate junk foods. I am concerned their immune systems will be striken down.

I noticed something on the show: The Sect. Mothers and Fathers had blushed red face....it almost seemed that they are eating healthy foods, especially high protein foods. The flushed red face shows that they had good immune systems. They eat lots of nuts, home made breads, fruits and vegetables. No junk foods, no soda, no processed foods. I fear that the children are getting sick now. Perhaps with runny noses or feeling ill.

How do they sleep? I bet they cried themselves to sleep wondering where their Mothers are. I wish CPS would stand there and listen to them cry. I would not want to hear them cry, it's too heartwrenching. I am sure they are wondering and being confused why they are there for. Especially the younger children.

Also I am wondering what is going to become the 13, 14, 15 years old Ladies that are pregnant, would they be able to keep their babies or would CPS take those away and put them up for Adoptions????? That would be heartwrenching as well.

They may be deprived of toys, but they are happy, they play outside, they had trampolines (the only toy they are allowed), they had Mothers who gave them Love. Materialism is not important, Love is. The Bond of Love is most important above all. I never had Toys when I was little, I was barren because we were poor then. All I had was Dolls. But I had fun, I played outside, on the swings, rode my bike...played with my Friends. The outside environment to play is enough for me, better than any toys.
Some Toys are not acceptable by most CPS such as violence and guns. I can understand why FLDS feels that they are full of violence. I would not allow guns and violence either. Some toys are ridiculous and unnecessary and can be dangerous. Look at Fisher Price and Mattel, now they are POISONOUS WITH LEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't want a baby sucking on poisonous lead plastics. They are unsafe! Even small objects are dangerous enough for a baby to choke on. Most Toys are violenced with guns, noises, and some are in a sexual way. Some are too promocious. I don't blame them. If the Toys are unsafe, and full of violence, I would make sure the Kids will never see violence.

Think about it, Play Station 2 Games are full of bloodshed and violence, full of guns and blasting. Military style. These FLDS Children never seen a Gun before in their lives. No weapons at all. That's what they meant the children and the Sect. Families are clean and pure as they are free from violence, evil, guns, and other things. They don't watch TV. They don't watch Movies...They don't drink Alcohol.

Pencostal Families don't drink Alcohol either. Scientiology Families don't believe in Psch. Doctors. They do their own way. Muslim Families fasted, on special holidays same for Jewish Families. I remember meeting with the AMISH Families, they are the most nicest people you can meet, they had no TV, they had NO CARS!!! They had no Electricity....They wear Dresses, and forbid outside worldly possessions. They don't go outside world. These Amish Families are similar to FLDS.
They had Love. They had an abundance of Healthy Foods. They give with generosity. They help build your houses, they work in Constructions. They ride Horses Buggies. I loved the Amish Families, as they are so clean from evil. They give me foods, pies, and a welcome Love.

I understand how the World can be all messed up, all evil with full of Wars, Pestilence, Sicknesses, Sadness, and Death. Especially with the War in Iraq, there are no improvements. The World is full of dictation, control, communism/facism under the control of the Governments. CPS is one of them. They control people and makes them suffer. They don't believe in unification of families but rather shaking up Families Trees for a Century and for a Price. You see Drugs, Prostitution, Wars, Fights, Sickenesses/Diseases out there. Even the Water is polluted. Sometimes it is unsafe to eat foods. Pet Foods gets poisoned. We all get poisoned. High Obseity and Depression. and the List goes on and on................................you name it.

I am grateful for staying with my Birth Parents all of my Life, I was never adopted out. I am grateful for Foods and Survival. I am grateful for roof under my head and for my Children. I am thankful for things provided for us. I am sad that these Children will not have the same luxury as being grateful and thankful that Mothers gave them Love can be gone in a day. Just like that. And possibly into different Family Trees that they don't even know. A Strange Lost World. I can only imagine and its just the beginning.

[donita]

Frustrated,

I too think about those children all the time. I can't stop praying for them, my heart is so heavy. Sometimes I wish I could go back and be like the rest of the world and not know what I know.

Those children have already been written off. Only a hand full of the psycologists will actually believe in or even go 1/2 of an extra mile for those children. the people who do try to help them, will only be whispers in the wind. And those mothers who's biology is bound to those children, who's lives revolve around thier children, Well, You and I both know, that CPS will torture those children until those mothers say and do exactly what they want them to say and do.

I don't understand this religion, but I know that they are human and that there are certain things about humans that are universal. One is that mothers instinctively build nests and nurture thier young. Men are instinctually territorial and protect that territory. Children need both of these things in order to feel safe. They need to feel safe if they are to flurish. I wonder how many of those children felt safe the day before the raid, and how many of them feel safe now?

If these men are pedifiles then they most difinitly need to go to prison and the mothers need to be loved and supported into society. BUT...When strangers come into your house and rip your children away from you. That is probably the most unloving thing a society could do to anyone. I personally don't see how anyone on this planet could believe that CPS has those families best interest in mind.

If they really were about what they claim to be about, then they would have seized the men and removed them. Not the children.

I think that, the powers that be, waited until these people had finished laboring and building up this property and are using this as a way to seize the developed property. I don't know this to be true, but it would not shock me one bit if it were.

When my family was still under states control, only a person here, and there, cared two seconds about the horrors that happened to my children while they were in thier care. Every time I thought I would be able to get my story to the judge,..well let me just say that, I heard the words "that is not what we are here for today" more than a half dozen times. My thoughts were always "you've got to be kidding me, doesn't the fact that you couldn't find my child or that she was raped and nearly taken to Mexico to be sold have any presidence at all." "Denying me my visitation rights is more important?" "She would have been sold by now if it weren't for my accused husband and me placing flyers everywhere and dogging the police every hour." Trust me...there are no "Amber Alerts" for foster children.

Frustrated... can I change my name to Frustrated too?

donita

[Frustrated]

LOL, you can to Frustrated 2!!!

I had a thought and it is a good reason:

I see a CPS Worker walking by with a Stroller with her 1 years old daughter, all happy...walking on the sidewalk...she knew who I was. She was my ex-worker and she couldn't have a baby, she tried for years and lo' and behold she got her daughter.
My question: How would she feel if some one comes and steal her daughter? Imagine that.

Yes, I want the CPS to know the sheer horror of the feel of anxiety and seperation of children's with their Mothers/Fathers. Its horrible!

How would they feel if this was the other way around to them? to their own family and have their children taken away from under their eyes? They will feel the horrors. The feelings are real. But you and me know that CPS don't care and don't wanna know. Means nothing to them.

God will make them pay, God says that children will be returned back to the parents some day. and will make the violaters and theifs pay. I trust God that he will do that some day. They should be afraid of the punishement on Judgement Day one day. But that's a whole nother story. Let's move on. ...

These Children deserve better and they are being MOVED into Foster Care AGAIN!!!!