"Submit and Deny"

Here's the place to discuss how to win in juvenile courtrooms.

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Leomarth
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"Submit and Deny"

Postby Leomarth » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:34 am

Our lawyers are advising us that we "submit and deny" to the family court. Basically it means that we submit to the present placement of our kids, but deny any charges of abuse.

Now, I know how this works in theory according to how our attorney's have explained it. But, how does it work in real life? Who here has done this before, and how did it work out?

I've also been told that if we want even supervised visits with our kids after we submit and deny, we'll have to have a psychiatric evaluation. And our lawyers tell us those never ever report in favor of the parents.

Marina
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Postby Marina » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:12 am

It sounds like a plea bargain.

Practically all lawyers do this.

The problem with this is that you can't appeal it.

http://forum.fightcps.com/viewtopic.php?t=7914

http://www.jbs.org/node/4631
Families separated by the State
By Gregory A. Hession, J.D.
Published: 2007-07-23 05:54 Family

Leomarth
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Postby Leomarth » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:20 pm

Marina wrote:It sounds like a plea bargain.

Practically all lawyers do this.


Right now it seems like a long term strategy, not quite like a plea bargain because we're specifically denying all charges.

The catch here is that if we don't submit and deny, we have to testify sooner. My wife and I are under investigation for criminal charges related to the CPS case, and we've been told several times that the police and DA like to vulture off the CPS case for evidence. So anything we say may lead them into rushing the criminal case, which we don't want right now. We haven't been indicted yet, so we've stayed out of jail. But when they indict us, we may go there. Then not only do we have zero chance of visitation, but also zero chance of getting them back at all while the criminal trial is going on.

MaggieC

Postby MaggieC » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:11 pm

I can't imagine the trauma you and your wife are enduring but still sounds like a "plea" to me; not i nthe criminal sense.

And both family court and criminal court do "vulture" off of each other.

Me, I would make them MAKE me by court order to do anything.

That is my persoanl feeling.

Leomarth
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Postby Leomarth » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:22 pm

I got more information on this today.

"Submit and Deny" is analogous to a plea of no contest. You skip the dependency hearing, and go straight to the disposition. So, you basically give up the ability to present and contest evidence, and give up a lot of your rights to appeal.

It then goes to what CPS wants to do - either reunification, guardianship, or TPR.

Needless to say, now that I understand it, I don't want to do this. I think we're going to do the dependency hearing, but the wife isn't convinced yet.

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LindaJM
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Postby LindaJM » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:45 am

I agree with you, Leomarth . . . if you submit to anything, it makes you look guilty even if you aren't. And it makes you subject to all the hoops CPS workers want to throw at you for many months to come.

Back in 2001 I told the local CPS worker that if he wanted to pursue a case against me it would go to a FULL TRIAL and he'd have to PROVE his charges. Well guess what . . . he dropped his investigation right away, and every other pseudo-investigation he started also went nowhere because he knew I meant it.

I was caught off-guard way back in 1989, not knowing how Juvenile Court dependency hearings worked, and was convinced by a lawyer to plead to charges so I could get my baby home that day. Well, NEVER AGAIN. I learned the hard way that pleading out means months of grief while being manipulated and abused by child welfare agents.

And be aware, your Juvenile Court lawyers could be recommending the "submit and deny" route in part because they don't want to go to all the trouble of doing the FULL TRIAL.

If you go to trial, you still might lose and have to comply with court ordered services, but if you win, the kids go home and child welfare backs off. I believe having a trial is worth the trouble when there's a chance the whole thing will be dropped when the trial is over.

Of course, I know nothing about your particular situation and the charges that you fear may be filed against you. I'm not an attorney, and not giving advice. I'm just another former victim of the child welfare system.
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Please keep in mind that none of us are lawyers and we can't give legal advice. We are simply telling you what we would do in a similar situation. It is to your advantage to get a lawyer.

"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke ... so try to do something to change the system ...

missing my kids
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Re: "Submit and Deny"

Postby missing my kids » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:41 pm

My lawyer keeps trying to convience me to submit something to get my kids back faster....HE SAYS...if you submit paperwork saying you agree there may be enough eveidence but you are not admiting you did anything...sounds like a plea to me. Also never let the lawyer talk you out of a trial. Mine has tried several times. He also asked me the other day if i would like to sign a statement saying i agree the kids should be in placement until my classes are done. This is crap to me. I thought they were already doing this when your kids are in foster care. I thought my lawyer was supposed to work for me...sounds like he's on other people's side. I would never agree my kids should stay in foster care instead of being with me. Overall I feel no one should sign anything...they all sound like a plea. I am not scared to go to trial because i didnt hurt my children.

kobluti
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Re: "Submit and Deny"

Postby kobluti » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:03 pm

I agree with everything the posts above have said. If you don't mind me asking, what are you and your wife's criminal charges? child endangerment?... What State are you in? Please note that under federal law (and generally State law also), the department MUST make reasonable efforts not to remove the children from your home because this is the ONLY way the department may be entitled to foster care/services reimbursements.

Also remember that most in not all States have a central registry whereby once it has been determined that the department had "reason to believe" that abuse/neglect occurred, you and your family will be placed into the registry for future use. Thus, should something (God forbid) ever arise in the future, the department WILL state that you "have a substantial history with the department."

Mere suggestion is make your lawyers do their job and review all the information in this website to get yourself educated!

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE


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