Mother found guilty

[Sarah79]

This is a high profile case and been in the news a few times. I know the grandparents of the couple who have been charged with child abuse because the county they live in outlawed spanking. The pastor was teaching spanking from the pulpit and there were many young couples in the church disciplining their children that way. The couples were arrested as well as the pastor.

The daughter in law of my friend was found guilty last week and will likely end up in prison. Her husband has been charged with the same and will be going on trial within a month or two and most likely be found guilty because the law states in that county that you can't spank and they did spank.

Child protection is on their side they say that there are no signs of abuse and that the children were healthy and well. Child protection was even going to testify on her behalf but was not allowed to do so for some reason.

Okay actually I do not get how they can pass a law just in that county???!! I will have to ask my friend.

So if both parents end up in jail what will happen to the kids? Even though CPS has been nice and unconcerned so far are they now going to swoop in and take the kids and file a TPR?

[LindaJM]

Counties can pass regulations. They should be posted on your county website. However... I don't think they can sentence people to prison. Maybe I'm wrong about that. County jail terms here go to one year. More than a year means prison.

Our state law (CA) specifically says that spanking is not considered child abuse. At least it did, last time I looked. Of course, spanking to the point where bruises are left on a child would be considered excessive and more than just a spanking.

[Eljay]

This is a high profile case and been in the news a few times. I know the grandparents of the couple who have been charged with child abuse because the county they live in outlawed spanking. The pastor was teaching spanking from the pulpit and there were many young couples in the church disciplining their children that way. The couples were arrested as well as the pastor.

The daughter in law of my friend was found guilty last week and will likely end up in prison. Her husband has been charged with the same and will be going on trial within a month or two and most likely be found guilty because the law states in that county that you can't spank and they did spank.

This guy?
http://standupforthetruth.com/2012/05/t ... king-case/

With THIS background? http://christiannews.net/2012/06/05/wis ... -spanking/

Caminiti came under fire in 2010 for allegedly advising members that they needed to discipline their children with a wooden spoon or dowel when they became “selfish.” According to reports, the oldest child involved was five years old and the youngest was two months.

This isn't "spanking" at all... smacking a two-month old baby with a weapon is not okay. I remember that when my son was born there was a Biblical-based book that promoted this kind of crap, including smacking the baby when he/she crawled off of his/her blanket, ignoring their cries in favor of a "schedule," and operating your home as if the only thing that mattered was the mother's schedule, not the needs of the baby. There was a secular version of the book that was popular for a time as well, until people starting seeing it for the evil that it was. Yes.. "On Becoming Baby Wise" ... so much controversy nobody will print it except themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Becoming_Baby_Wise

Child protection is on their side they say that there are no signs of abuse and that the children were healthy and well. Child protection was even going to testify on her behalf but was not allowed to do so for some reason.

Well, if CPS is a county-based entity and we're talking about a county laws, then, no... they should not testify against their own laws. Besides, CPS could only testify as to what they DID NOT see, if that was the case, which wouldn't help them. Also, it's not CPS's job to testify for people... they should be protecting children.

So if both parents end up in jail what will happen to the kids? Even though CPS has been nice and unconcerned so far are they now going to swoop in and take the kids and file a TPR?

Those parents should be putting guardianship papers in order TODAY... they should be at will, revocable and held onto until absolutely necessary, but they need to be court approved prior to them possibly being sentenced to jail. The parents should also be instructing their lawyers to bargain down to probation only, agreeing to not break the law (while the law is still on the books).

Okay actually I do not get how they can pass a law just in that county???!! I will have to ask my friend.

Order of legal hierarchy is Federal, State, County, City. As long as the lower laws do not conflict with higher laws *AND* get taken to higher courts, then they stand. If your state law does not specifically state that "reasonable corporal punishment" is allowed, then they can pass a specific law that prohibits it. If this is Wisconsin, then state law says:

Wisconsin
Use of force is justified when actor's conduct is reasonable discipline of a child by a person responsible for child's welfare. Reasonable discipline may involve only such force as a reasonable person believes is necessary. Never reasonable to use force intended to cause great bodily harm or death, or which creates an unreasonable risk of great bodily harm or death.
§ 939.45. [Criminal Code]

I, considering myself a reasonable person, do not think it reasonable to use a weapon on a baby. Ever. There really should not be *ANY* sort of discipline before they are a year old... environmental control and redirection are all that is reasonable for the first year of life.

[Eljay]

FWIW, this source makes a good point:
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliv ... d_abu.html

I'm still trying to find where it was a *county* law that was broken. Are you sure it was? It sounds like he was charged under "Conspiracy to Commit Child Abuse" at the state level (even though the county prosecutes, it's a state law that was broken):

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statut ... tes/48.pdf (search on "consipiracy" to find the statute)

She said Caminiti knew it was illegal, because he had advised his flock not to punish their children this way in public places because it might be seen as abuse

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/crim ... z2ECyInovN

[Sarah79]

I told them to get their Guardianship papers in order but they are so distraught and beyond that they can't listen to anything we say right now.

Of course beating a two month old with an object is child abuse and what book did you ever read that advocated that? I have read Babywise too and never saw that in there.

[Eljay]

I actually grew up less than 5 miles from where the Ezzo's started their movement and initial program/book ” Growing Kids God's Way.” I was close friends with a friend who jumped on the bandwagon very early and was raising her newborn that way, following her sister's example (she was a member of that church). I wasn't even married (or was newly wed) then so I didn't pay very much attention at the time. A couple years later, I was a new mom and she again told me ALL about it... The ”blanket training” with a rod/spoon, the playpen time, the scheduling, THE ROD. It never appealed to me. I never read GKGW or Baby Wise because that didn't mesh with our parenting style. The news reports on this guy sound like he was advocating some of those theories.

[Eljay]

Just so you know I'm not making this up....
http://forum.baby-gaga.com/about731757.html

[Sarah79]

Yes that all sounds like what the Ezzo's teach but do they think you should use a rod on your two month old?

Do you think any kind of spanking at all is child abuse? I don't think you are making anything up.

[Eljay]

Yes that all sounds like what the Ezzo's teach but do they think you should use a rod on your two month old?

As I've already stated, I didn't read GKGW/BabyWise nor attend their conferences so I can't speak to the age at which they said you should start hitting babies. A two month old can't even roll over off of a blanket so I would hope not. Sadly, the new report on the minister of the church you mention is made to sound like the two month olds were somehow disciplined, as written here:

Caminiti came under fire in 2010 for allegedly advising members that they needed to discipline their children with a wooden spoon or dowel when they became “selfish.” According to reports, the oldest child involved was five years old and the youngest was two months.

I just made the link between the two because on the surface it sounds a lot like Ezzo's work. I have NO idea if Caminiti was following/inspired by Ezzo.

Do you think any kind of spanking at all is child abuse? I don't think you are making anything up.

No, I don't think spanking is abusive in the slightest. I think that children are so very, very different and you have to vary your parenting to adapt. My daughter is as compliant as the day is long and has only gotten 5-6 swats in her entire life. My son is ADD (not diagnosed until 7) and had a horrible habit of 'rough play' and careless actions that hurt his sister over and over again. He very rarely ever hurt her out of anger, but was just thoughtless and not really thinking about the consequences. He got lots and lots of spankings. Some from me, and really painful ones from dad. There were a few spatula whacks in there too. Sometimes it was a swat to get his attention, sometimes a real punishment with one spank per year of age.

I have a girlfriend whose daughter was the sweetest thing ever and didn't have a defiant bone in her body. She was happy to do whatever her mother asked of her. If she ever started to maybe sway towards not doing what she was supposed to, mom would say, "ohhhhhh... you're going to get in trouble!" and that girl would JUMP and do what she had been asked to do. At 6 years old she had never, EVER gotten a punishment because she was that good. So, it's not so much that I believe that spanking is necessary, but it's a necessary tool in the parental toolbox... every kid needs different tools, and every situation needs careful evaluation.

Slapping... that one kinda bothers me. It carries a totally different connotation in my mind. I think it would leave an indelible mark on the child's memory. I hope that I would never do that, and my kids are very good and respectful kids... but then I imagine how it would feel to have a mouthy 16 yr old son call his mother a bitch and I imagine it would be an almost innate reaction to slap his face. I'm on the fence.... I don't think it crosses into "abuse" territory. Is it just an "age appropriate" graduation from spanking? I don't think a single slap by a sober parent should be classified as abuse, that's for sure... but it should signal the END of an argument, or a stopping point, not the start of more violence. What do you think? You have older kids, right? (my oldest is 14)

[Sarah79]

I agree completely with that. I don't think it's up to the government to decide how we discipline our children. All kids are different what works with one will not work for another.

[monkette31]

I don't believe in hitting my kids at all, ever. I tried spanking my son when he was six, it felt stupid, he was too strong and I raised him wild so that didn't go over very well. Many times just the reaction of hearing of what he did, looking at him and chasing him scared the hell out of him.