Grounds for jurisdiction

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Clynn89
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby Clynn89 » Mon May 22, 2017 10:49 am

I was told multiple times after I decided to go to trial that if a jury finds even one allegation true, I lose. Some of the allegations are ridiculous..for example a speeding ticket.

After looking into the laws, I found that any allegation they do find true must be under the grounds for jurisdiction law for them to be able to take jurisdiction over your children. But the law isn't specific on what is and what isn't. It seems like it was made that way just so they can throw anything they want under it. How will a jury decide this? Or will the judge later decide if allegations your found guilty of fall into this category?

I do not understand why it shouldn't be decided before the trial if all the allegations would even be enough for them to take jurisdiction. Many of the allegations aren't even anything to do with the case..like an old eviction. This was before the kids were removed and I took care of it and live in a new house. We were never homeless or even in danger of being homeless. Why does this matter? Its obvious that they add allegations that wouldn't amount to them taking jurisdiction, just to say it in front of a jury so they will think worse of you.

This entire trial is now focused on making me look bad..since none of the allegations are even abuse or neglect. They are having all of my family that I do not get along with testify agaisnt me. So it's perfectly acceptable to bring up things that happened years ago, that have nothing to even do with the children, just to make me look bad?

lori1968
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby lori1968 » Wed May 24, 2017 8:53 am

Do you have an attorney? I support your decision to go to a trial. If I could go back and redo my nightmare I would have said go to trial vs submit and deny. I do remember court appointed attorney telling me if I chose trial that they would find anything and everything from my past and use it against me. Looking back its all intimidation tactics meant to scare you into doing what they want. I did what they wanted and I did everything required and now almost two years later they took my child I've never seen her she wants to see me and talk to me and she can't. She lives in another state and everyone is making money off us. Anyway, stay strong don't let them make you doubt yourself.

Clynn89
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby Clynn89 » Mon May 29, 2017 12:03 pm

Yes..a court appointed attorney and he isn't helpful. I can't afford to hire one. The entire system is crooked..so I don't feel positive this trial will work out in my favor. But it's defiantly worth trying. I know if I agree to their "plan" I won't have my kids for a year, maybe not at all.

They've told me if I were a good mother I would take a plea and get my kids back faster. They've offered "the best deal they've ever offered anyone" and agreed to take all the allegations off if I just plead guilty to one allegation. The LGAL told me if I went to trial she would bury me..and make sure I don't get my kids back.

Its disgusting and crooked.

lori1968
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby lori1968 » Tue May 30, 2017 12:01 am

It is disgusting, crooked and don't understand how this is legal. The government is trafficking our children for profit. It sickens me the crap I've learned about this dept. Will your court appointed attorney be representing you at trial? Do you have a legal aid in your area? If so, maybe you could contact them and ask them for info on what to expect at trial. Don't be afraid. Don't be intimidated.

lori1968
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby lori1968 » Tue May 30, 2017 12:05 am

Forgot to ask... can you tell me what their allegations are?

dieharddad
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:26 am

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby dieharddad » Tue May 30, 2017 9:15 am

Clynn89 wrote:Yes..a court appointed attorney and he isn't helpful. I can't afford to hire one. The entire system is crooked..so I don't feel positive this trial will work out in my favor. But it's defiantly worth trying. I know if I agree to their "plan" I won't have my kids for a year, maybe not at all.

They've told me if I were a good mother I would take a plea and get my kids back faster. They've offered "the best deal they've ever offered anyone" and agreed to take all the allegations off if I just plead guilty to one allegation. The LGAL told me if I went to trial she would bury me..and make sure I don't get my kids back.

Its disgusting and crooked.


First let me say how sorry I am Clynn89 that you have to be subjected to this treatment. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy and to read your story breaks my heart. That being said, you must prepare yourself for battle as CPS is not going to hand you anything and as you have already experienced will fabricate testimony, and use other mis information to get what they want. You must get yourself organized and dig in. I would also suggest that you link this discussion to your other post so others can see what the background is and keep you from having to repeat yourself. Just post in one spot so others who are supporting you don't have to hunt and peck for important aspects of your case.

I do not have any experience in your state with cps so I can only speak in very general terms but maybe one of the others here can be more specific with regard to MI.

There is a lot of great information on this website for preparing yourself for this process so I would strongly suggest reading it over a couple of times and make notes to yourself as to how you are going to move forward. Just because you do not have the resources to hire a private attorney does not mean you can't be involved in your own affairs.

I would also keep up with reaching out here on the site and seek and much guidance and information as possible. You still have time before your hearing so it is not too late to prepare a strategy and work to achieve the best outcome you can manage.

Please, please, please take care of yourself in the mean time. You will not be affective if you are not eating, sleeping, etc. Calm, planning and execution and you will be surprised with just how sloppy cps is and you can use it to hang them with their own information.

Finally, try and get over paying the victim. Yes, they are evil and corrupt but you have to get past that and get to work getting your child back. Of course it is ok to feel bad at a time like this but show them nothing other than a woman who is determined to get her child back. You can do nothing about what has happened in the past. It is time to focus on the now and what is to come. Think positive. Keep saying to yourself "I am strong and going to get my child back". You can do this. I believe in you.

Clynn89
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby Clynn89 » Tue May 30, 2017 9:24 pm

Pre trial is in the morning. The worker that did the entire investigation has been "out sick" since February. The trial has been postponed 2 times because of this. He once again can't be here for trial..they decided to continue without him. It is clear he isn't sick. He changed his career on Facebook to "independent entertainment professional".

The case files absolutely do not match up with the allegations he put in the petition. I've been asking his supervisor to discuss this with me and answer some questions, today they tell me they refuse to talk to me about anything until after the trial.

Today the foster care worker gives me a report about my 4 year old daughter. She was having problems in school so they decide to do some kind of evaluation. It says in there that she's been touching her privates in school and everywhere else. Also that she's been kissing people in an inappropriate way. None of this has ever happened before..there has never even been a mention of anything sexual in this case. I'm sure you can see where this is probably going. This is brought up right before trial..the LGAL was involved of course. She's terrible. Im just devastated. I feel like my life is over.

I explained my case in another post..i will put it in the next comment so I can delete it.

Clynn89
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby Clynn89 » Tue May 30, 2017 9:27 pm

CPS opened a case agaisnt me on December 5th 2016. I tested positive for amphetamine (adderall) at the hospital when I gave birth to my daughter. I didn't have a prescription at the time. My daughter was healthy and the doctor even encouraged me to breastfeed even though she knew I was taking adderall. She said the dose i was taking wouldn't harm my daughter.

I lived in Monroe county but had my daughter in Wayne county. Wayne county CPS sent a worker to my apartment and they said everything was good..they told me they probably wouldn't be back and the case would be closed.

The father of my daughter, who I was not with, had his rights to 2 children terminated in Florida. I told them this at the hospital and because of that they transferred his case to monroe county where he also lived. On January 2nd the cops were sent to my house, they said they had a complaint about the father of my baby. I later found out that it was because they confirmed he lost his rights to his children in Florida.

January 4th I went to the DHS for a meeting with the new worker investigating his case(I set this meeting up). The worker asked a few questions about him and asked me to take a drug test. He said even if it was positive for adderall it would be good to show I wasn't doing other drugs. So I did. He said that he was not my caseworker and if I needed a caseworker I would be given a different one.

I don't hear anything until January 18th. My step mother tells me that the worker told her he wants to meet with me and my daughter's father. Its weird that he doesn't call me, since he has my number. So I call him and he asks if I can come the next day. I told him I would try to be there but I had an appointment so I might not be able to make it. He just said that's fine.

The next day I get a TEXT from the caseworker saying "why are you not present at this important meeting? We are discussing if we are going to remove your children or let them stay in your home".

I'm getting text messages from my family saying I need to get there now. I find out that this caseworker called my entire family to come to this meeting. 7 of my family members total. He never mentioned anything about them coming. Never mentioned my children being removed. So my family's texting me saying he wants me to bring the kids there and he's going to have a cop take them. I call him and ask what the hell is going on? He tells me to come and bring my kids. I keep asking him why since he already saw them. He just keeps saying.."are you refusing to cooperate?".

So I tell him I'm coming..but im leaving my children at a family members house until I talk to a lawyer. He just keeps talking over me..saying I'm not cooperating. So I'm crying hysterically. This entire time he's got me on speaker phone without telling me. So all of my family and 2 other workers hear me freaking out.

I leave right away. On my way there he has my mother tell me forget it..He's petitioning the court to remove the kids. He has her tell me to give the kids over to my family in the next few hours or the police will take them. So I do.

I go to court 2 days later and I'm given a court appointed lawyer. I tell them I don't think this is right and I refuse to agree to anything, at least until I've had more time to find out EXACTLY what I'm agreeing to.

I found out later that agreeing to the plan would mean not having the kids for a year, and risking my rights being terminated. They refused to tell me exactly what the plan would be until I agree to it. So I ask for a jury trial. My lawyer was very helpful in the beginning, but suddenly is pushing me to take a plea. The judge doesn't want this trial because they "dont have the funds".

So their constantly trying to bully and scare me into taking a plea. I would be pleading guilty to taking adderall while pregnant and failing a drug test for adderall on Jan 4th. They even recently added a drug test saying I failed a second one for adderall back on Jan 6th. After I threw a fit knowing I didn't fail another drug test, my lawyer made them get lab results. The prococustor says it was only a "human error" when she typed the petion and it was removed.

The investigator that had the kids removed was at the first court date in January, but totally disappeared after that. They told me he was out on medical and would be back in time for the first trial date in the beginning of April. He wasn't, and my trial was canceled. It was rescheduled for May 1st, he would DEFINITELY be back by then. He wasn't, so it was again canceled and rescheduled for June 12th.

June 12th will be 144 days since my kids were removed. They obviously don't follow the 63 day rule, they said its acceptable for "good cause". They need the CPS worker to testify so it will keep being extended until he's back.

I have a prescription for adderall now. I see a psychiatrist every 2 months and a therapist every month. I take drug screens for CPS and bring my prescription to them every week so they can count it. I have sutiable housing and always have.

It took a ridiculous amount of time to get my case files. The case in Monroe county isn't even mine..its in my daughter's fathers name. My Wayne county case files hardly have anything in them. They say after investigating me they saw the kids were safe, happy and healthy. They closed the case. My daughter had a mecounium test done at the hospital. They never even asked the hospital for the results. It shows that in January Monroe CPS called them asking about the test. They closed my case but transferred my daughters father's case to Monroe. I ended up involved because of his case.

The case worker from monroe put in the petition that I was not answering calls and avoiding him. He never contacted me besides that ONE TEXT about removing the kids. In the case files he never once mentions trying to contact me. Basically everything he says in the petition isn't what he says in the case files. I dont understand how someone can flat out lie.

I can't even explain all of the mistakes they've made and lies they've told..this is already long enough. I just found out I was put on the central registry months ago but never informed.

I feel like there's no way to win this with all of these people against me and lying about whatever they want. I can't understand how children can be removed over something like this. I can't afford to hire a good lawyer. I owe the horrible LGAL $1000 and I'm paying child support to the foster care system.

Thank you to anyone who reads this..i just feel lost and hopeless. Sorry for how long this is..believe it or not, I left A LOT out.

dieharddad
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:26 am

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby dieharddad » Wed May 31, 2017 5:27 am

I have read everything you posted and hope you can rally back and gain the courage to fight. You can do this but there are things that I see missing from what you have described.

First, I would not necessarily think in terms of winning and losing. You are on a mission to get your child back in your life under the best circumstances you can achieve.

Have you begun journaling everything that has happened up to now. If not, you should do this as soon as possible. It will help you keep everything organized.

Have you obtained a copy of the regulations pertaining to cps and the process for your state? You should have this and read at least a couple of times making notes. There is a lot of technical language but all of these terms can be researched and defined in ways that you understand.

Keep a running list of things that you don't understand and seek clarification from anywhere and everywhere including here.

Make sure you have copies of all important documents. If you do not have a copy of a particular thing, request a copy from the agency and always make your request in writing via usps with return receipt requested.

Look up the regulations in your state on recording conversations. Here where I am, you only need consent of one of the parties partaking in the conversation. I have recorded many conversations with my cell phone. Be sure that you understand how to do this legally.

Draft up a statement of facts as described on this site. Present them to your attorney to have entered into the record on your behalf.

Keep a running list of things that you feel where cps has not followed their own procedures and/or regulations. Order these in order of importance so that you can prepare a defense.

I know you feel overwhelmed but if you map out what all you need to accomplish and assign due dates such that by the time you are finished you are as prepared as possible for your next step in the process. I noticed you have used the word "trial" date a few times. Again, I'm in a different state so things may be done differently there then here but here it is referred to as a "hearing". do your best to learn the language of this process. I t may seem difficult at first but after a little while you will pick it up. It just takes practice.

I also don't understand how it is they pulled you into an investigation that appeared to begin with your child's father. You should have in your possession a letter from the agency that they are investigating you and for what. If not, this should be requested.

You can do this. Stay strong for yourself and your child.

lori1968
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby lori1968 » Wed May 31, 2017 8:06 am

You can do this... don't allow your fear of the unknown to get in the way. I agree that if you take this time to learn as much as you can about your states policies and procedures, organize your case file, write everything down. Knowledge is POWER! You are in the right. Just keep reaching out, keep the faith and stay strong! I believe in you!

Clynn89
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby Clynn89 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:51 pm

I'm sorry for disappearing..i sort of had a mental breakdown, which happens a lot since I've been dealing with this.

Anyways update- my last trial in the beginning of June ended in a mistrial. So the new trial is Monday. We got about 6 hours into the trial when someone finally mentioned they noticed a juror talking to one of the witnesses on our lunch break. The witness was my step mother who is testifying against me. The juror said she didn't "connect the dots" in the beginning when she was asked if she knew any of the witnesses. Turns out they knew each other very well and are even Facebook friends and have hung out together. This just shows how screwed up this shitty little county is..my family knows everyone.

The horrible LGAL stopped showing up and was replaced with a new one..who isn't much better.

The judge is furious about having to do another trial..its so inconvenient to everyone and the court doesn't have the funds for it. He ordered us to mediation to work out a deal and avoid trial. That was 2 days ago.

The "deal" I was offered was that they would drop the case against my husband if I plead guilty and return my daughter while I participate in their case plan. I have THREE children. They basically said "we'll see how it goes" about returning my other 2. When I wouldn't agree, they offered to let my son also come home..but only after I participate in some kind of autism training classes since my son is autistic. They can not tell me when the classes would start and how long they would last. But estimate it wouldn't be until at least January. They would not even discuss returning my youngest daughter. They basically want me to "earn" one child back at a time..probably keeping me jumping through hoops for 2 years. I cannot understand how they can think I'm safe enough to have one child home but not the others. Im disgusted. It seems like they want to keep at least one in foster care for the money..and set me up to fail with some ridiculous drawn out plan.

So I'm going to trial..and my chances aren't good. The entire case is based on making me look bad since my kids were never actually abused or neglected. Its basically a free for all for them in court..they can use any kind of hearsay, bring up anything they want even if it isn't relevant and use whatever they want with absolutely no proof.

I can't even begin to describe the anger that has built up inside of me. They can literally do whatever they want to me and it doesn't matter. Because really what am I going to do about it? I just feel hopeless.

lori1968
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby lori1968 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:02 pm

Please don't feel hopeless... I admire your strength and determination. Your kids have a mom who loves them and this certainly is proof of that love. Don't let the system win. I went to court this last Tuesday and after almost two years... in five minutes maybe even less... case dismissed! Judge ordered that my child be returned to fathers custody... I told them he never had custody. Judge was like oh shit! She told the attorneys, "she could go take her child right now". After almost two years of not seeing her and only one phone conversation. She wants nothing to do with me. There supposed "case plan' got me nothing! How I managed to work full time and do all those classes, plus ua's, plus live in a womens DV shelter which had it's own classes, chores, and lots of rules in the end it all was for nothing!!! It was about money and when they couldn't make anymore off of my child..case closed. Next! Iam now left having to file for visitation and custody on my own if legal aid won't help. I also must pay back their cash assistance with interest because apparently he just got a job??? I also have received a wage assignment for child support and insurance. Go to trial and WIN!!!

Clynn89
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Grounds for jurisdiction

Postby Clynn89 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 am

I haven't been on here since the last time I posted..which was right before my trial. After all of the work I put in trying to fight this, it just didn't seem to make a difference. So since then I just kind of shut down and stopped thinking about all of this. I figured I just had to accept whatever they wanted to do to me.

So I lost the trial. My court appointed attorney actually did awesome.. He kind of told me the whole way through that a trial would most likely be pointless, so I assumed he wouldn't try his best. But he really went above and beyond..he totally shocked me and everyone else with how he had everything put together for my trial. But he was right about it being pointless. He was just being honest. Because even though he was great, the prosecutor went up there and said anything she wanted. Basically there were no rules for her.

The trial lasted 2 days. The first day was 8 hours, the second almost 10. The jury deliberated for an hour and a half..so I got my hopes up because it would seem like a good sign that they were really taking their time and thinking it all over. But they came back guilty..all of them agreed. My husband was also found guilty... His trial and mine were done together.

I don't regret the trial.. What their making me do is the same as all the "deals" they offered. A psychological evaluation, a substance abuse assessment, drug screens (which I had already been taking since the start) and a class for parents of autistic children. My husband was only ordered to do a psychological evaluation.

We were both granted an appeal and given appeal attorneys. I think they have to do this for everyone though..so I'm sure it doesn't mean anything. My husbands appeal attorney basically told him it's pointless.. After my husband told him if he didn't want to put in an effort he would ask for a new attorney, he actually changed his attitude and put together a good appeal. I have not even talked to my appeal attorney. After hearing it's pointless so many times, I mentally couldn't handle hearing it again. So he put together my appeal without talking to me..my regular attorney from court actually called him and filled him in on all the details of my case for me. My court appointed attorney is a wonderful man. I do regret not calling him and trying my hardest to help with this appeal..I just couldn't handle it.

My appeal attorney represented the man who murdered a woman in my home town..the Chelsea Bruck case. This is the same county that my case is in. I don't know if he's good or not. I actually have the appeal he did for me sitting in my bed room.. And still haven't read it. It just upsets me. I have absolutely no hope for this appeal. I learned from the trial to never get my hopes up. It kills me that all of these things that CPS and the court have done wrong in my case will never be even acknowledged.

Michigan CPS has been in the news for accusations that caseworkers have been lying about casefiles and records. One of the counties accused of this on the news is Monroe county..where my case is. One of the accusations is that they had caseworkers assigned to cases they weren't working on. I'm positive this happened in my case.

The caseworker who started all this disappeared after the first court date. Our trial was postponed 3 times been because DHS told everyone he was on medical leave. After the last one cancelled they just ended up saying he would not be at the trial.I asked if he even worked for DHS anymore and they said they cannot answer that. So I started to complain about what was happening..I even contacted the director for CPS in our state. Suddenly before the trial they say he can make it. He came..lied his ass off and clearly was not sick. We were not allowed to question him about if he was still employed there. I also went through his social media and found out he changed his job from DHS worker to "professional entertainment artist" (whatever that means). His work number was shut off. And the secretary at DHS said no one by that name works there when I called. We were not allowed to bring this up in court either.

I can't even begin to explain the things that have been done wrong in this case. Things that go against what the CPS policy manual says and even the law. It just doesn't seem to matter though.

I wish there was more information about things like this. I looked everywhere to find a case or story like mine.. there's nothing out there. I wish there were more fourms like this one..it doesn't seem like many people use this now.

If anyone could ever use it I have all of my court transcripts (even the ones from the mistrial), all of my CPS casefiles and my appeal. I feel like its helpful to look at other people's cases..I wish there were more out there.


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