Focus on fighting CPS

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Lysander
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Focus on fighting CPS

Postby Lysander » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:16 am

Suppose someone posts, "They're trying to take my kid away because they say I did x, y, and z." Should people comment, "Well, I don't think you SHOULD win against CPS because it sounds like you're an unfit parent" or should they just say, "Here's how to go about having the best chance of keeping your kid"?

The name of the site is "Fight CPS", not "Assess whether CPS should win". Every parent here is imperfect, and some of them have kids who would probably be better off with some other caregiver. But given that it's an adversarial system, the goal should be for every parent to present his case as best he can. It's the job of the prosecutor to present evidence that the parent shouldn't be allowed to keep his kids, and the judge or jury is supposed to hear all parties' arguments and make the decision based on the law and the evidence. In order for the court to do that, it needs the parent to be prepared to present his side of the story in as persuasive a way as he can. I think it's the proper role of forums like this to help equip parents to do that, since not everyone can afford good counsel, and even those who do have good counsel need to get advice from other sources too, rather than putting all their trust in one person.

Often there's a grain of truth to accusations, but the parent would be wise to not even admit that grain. It should be up to the state to prove him guilty, even if he fails to deny that he did x, y, and z. One thing we do know, is that whatever the parent did, CPS will tend to exaggerate and distort it, usually in a way that makes the situation sound more disturbing and dangerous. There are almost always mistakes made whenever someone tries to document a story that someone else is telling them. Journalists and historians deal with this problem all the time; their stories are generally at least slightly erroneous and misleading because of their own assumptions and biases that creep in when they're deciding what, out of all they were told, to highlight, and what to omit.

So if someone says, "I was accused of x, y, and z, based on evidence a, b, and c" and they don't attempt to explain or deny the allegations, this doesn't mean that they did all those things; it could just mean that they don't want to get into the long story of what exactly DID happen. What did happen is irrelevant to their fight against CPS if the state can't prove it by the required standard.

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family_man
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Re: Focus on fighting CPS

Postby family_man » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:32 pm

Fighting CPS is a little different from defending yourself in a criminal prosecution. The former is conducted in civil court, where decisions are made by a preponderance of evidence. CPS does not have to convince a jury that you committed a criminal act beyond a reasonable doubt. They only have to convince a judge by 51% of the evidence presented that conditions exist that justify a TPR, or whatever.

I am not an attorney, but I believe that any competent attorney would advise you not to disclose to anyone, not even anonymously, any sexual impulses you might have towards children. That is your business and no one else's. It does not help you build trust with the people you will need to have on your side in order to have a successful outcome. I don't know what you wrote on social websites, and I don't want to know. I do not know how damaging what you may have written will be to your case. But I do know that you need to disavow any inclination to pedaphelia, and not try to defend it or minimize it, as some of your posts seem to suggest.

I am not pre-judging you. I am giving you the best advice I can for your situation. Be very careful. Posting on this board is fairly safe, but not 100% guaranteed. If faced with a court order, Linda will have no choice but to disclose everything you have written here to the authorities.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, and this is not legal advice.

Lysander
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Re: Focus on fighting CPS

Postby Lysander » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:18 pm

family_man wrote:Fighting CPS is a little different from defending yourself in a criminal prosecution. The former is conducted in civil court, where decisions are made by a preponderance of evidence. CPS does not have to convince a jury that you committed a criminal act beyond a reasonable doubt. They only have to convince a judge by 51% of the evidence presented that conditions exist that justify a TPR, or whatever.

I am not an attorney, but I believe that any competent attorney would advise you not to disclose to anyone, not even anonymously, any sexual impulses you might have towards children. That is your business and no one else's. It does not help you build trust with the people you will need to have on your side in order to have a successful outcome. I don't know what you wrote on social websites, and I don't want to know. I do not know how damaging what you may have written will be to your case. But I do know that you need to disavow any inclination to pedaphelia, and not try to defend it or minimize it, as some of your posts seem to suggest.

I am not pre-judging you. I am giving you the best advice I can for your situation. Be very careful. Posting on this board is fairly safe, but not 100% guaranteed. If faced with a court order, Linda will have no choice but to disclose everything you have written here to the authorities.


In Colorado, you have a right to a jury trial to determine if the child is dependent or neglected. Currently we're working on getting that scheduled. There are a couple of other states that also allow jury trials in CPS cases, although sometimes that's only to decide the issue of whether to terminate parental rights. Even if the parent gets a favorable verdict, it doesn't necessarily end CPS' involvement in the case or get him custody of his kids. In Colorado, getting a favorable jury verdict means that the case is closed and CPS has no further jurisdiction in the matter.

You're right, it's legally advantageous to keep one's mouth shut. Activists, on the other hand, will favor speaking one's mind, in hopes of influencing the political system, even if the process of bringing about change could take decades and require a lot of sacrifices. My wife chose an activist to have a kid with. She knew what kind of activist, too.

In the long run, we're going to need some people who are willing to speak out rather than only going along with the system. Part of what will motivate people to speak out is when they feel the system is rigged so badly against them that they have nothing to lose. For example, I think that CPS made a decision to never let me have custody of my kid before I even knew of my kid's existence. I don't think there's anything I can say or do that will sway them, although they're not going to come right out and admit that. So I have the luxury of being able to speak freely, without worrying that it's going to adversely affect my child.

Sometimes, in fact, if you don't defend yourself and your actions, you just look worse. By that I mean, sometimes it's better to justify your actions than to deny them or apologize for them. Certainly from a political standpoint, that's the way to help bring about change. Falsely denying something can make you seem like a liar, and apologizing essentially means that you agree with the government that you did something wrong. The government loves when people do either of those things, because it gives them an opportunity to discredit their opponents, and it gives them an excuse to treat them worse. If you defend your actions, then at least you go down fighting; you let it be known that you don't agree that you deserve what the government is about to do to you.

Chief Justice Hughes (1936) once wrote that "A dissent in a court of last resort is an appeal to the brooding spirit of law, to the intelligence of a future day when a later decision may possibly correct the error into which the dissenting justice believes the court to have been betrayed". The accused also has the opportunity to put his dissent on the record.

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good dad
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Re: Focus on fighting CPS

Postby good dad » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:24 am

Lysander wrote:


You're right, it's legally advantageous to keep one's mouth shut. Activists, on the other hand, will favor speaking one's mind, in hopes of influencing the political system, even if the process of bringing about change could take decades and require a lot of sacrifices. My wife chose an activist to have a kid with. She knew what kind of activist, too.

In the long run, we're going to need some people who are willing to speak out rather than only going along with the system. Part of what will motivate people to speak out is when they feel the system is rigged so badly against them that they have nothing to lose. For example, I think that CPS made a decision to never let me have custody of my kid before I even knew of my kid's existence. I don't think there's anything I can say or do that will sway them, although they're not going to come right out and admit that. So I have the luxury of being able to speak freely, without worrying that it's going to adversely affect my child.

Sometimes, in fact, if you don't defend yourself and your actions, you just look worse. By that I mean, sometimes it's better to justify your actions than to deny them or apologize for them. Certainly from a political standpoint, that's the way to help bring about change. Falsely denying something can make you seem like a liar, and apologizing essentially means that you agree with the government that you did something wrong. The government loves when people do either of those things, because it gives them an opportunity to discredit their opponents, and it gives them an excuse to treat them worse. If you defend your actions, then at least you go down fighting; you let it be known that you don't agree that you deserve what the government is about to do to you.

Chief Justice Hughes (1936) once wrote that "A dissent in a court of last resort is an appeal to the brooding spirit of law, to the intelligence of a future day when a later decision may possibly correct the error into which the dissenting justice believes the court to have been betrayed". The accused also has the opportunity to put his dissent on the record.

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In your first post in this thread you said " Every parent here is imperfect"......
1. Then one should know not to expect only responses one wants to hear...
2. Being an "Activist" you should be accustomed to having to defend your position against a majority of the opposition..

even those who do have good counsel need to get advice from other sources too, rather than putting all their trust in one person.

So if someone says, "I was accused of x, y, and z, based on evidence a, b, and c" and they don't attempt to explain or deny the allegations, this doesn't mean that they did all those things; it could just mean that they don't want to get into the long story of what exactly DID happen.



My advice, don't expect other parents to view x,y and z or a,b and c exactly as you see it....
If one seeks advice but "doesn't want to get into the long story of what exactly DID happen." One shouldn't be shocked by the opinions formed by people who only hear the limited version....
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My advice is my opinion and not legal advice
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A bad lawyer is worse then no lawyer and bad advice is worse then no advice....

Lysander
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Re: Focus on fighting CPS

Postby Lysander » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:09 pm

good dad wrote:
Lysander wrote:If one seeks advice but "doesn't want to get into the long story of what exactly DID happen." One shouldn't be shocked by the opinions formed by people who only hear the limited version....


Sometimes people don't even want the full story. If you tell them everything, they dismiss it with "tl;dr" or wonder why you gave them so much content to wade through. Don't most CPS cases tend to be pretty complex?

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good dad
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Re: Focus on fighting CPS

Postby good dad » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:35 pm

Lysander wrote:
good dad wrote:
Lysander wrote:If one seeks advice but "doesn't want to get into the long story of what exactly DID happen." One shouldn't be shocked by the opinions formed by people who only hear the limited version....


Sometimes people don't even want the full story. If you tell them everything, they dismiss it with "tl;dr" or wonder why you gave them so much content to wade through. Don't most CPS cases tend to be pretty complex?


Some may think there is to much content to wade through, some may say if you leave out pertinent details most advice given may be 100% wrong and lead you further into a hole
*********************

My advice is my opinion and not legal advice

*********************

A bad lawyer is worse then no lawyer and bad advice is worse then no advice....


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